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Spotted on BaT - is this subframe cracking?

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    Spotted on BaT - is this subframe cracking?

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2002-bmw-m3-145/

    I was looking through the sellers photos. Originally photo 154 stuck out because of what I thought was a crack at the wave in the subframe. I took a closer look at photo 161 and I think it is just the light acting weird. However— also in 161, it looks like the spot welds are popping and there may be a hairline rack forming at the 2-3 o’clock position from the bushing. Am I correct in seeing that or am I a noob?
    Attached Files
    2005 ///M3 6MT Coupe Imola/Black Leather

    Build Thread: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-build-journal

    #2
    Ethically, if this is a failure, do I point it out to potential buyers with less than 12 hours on the auction?
    2005 ///M3 6MT Coupe Imola/Black Leather

    Build Thread: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-build-journal

    Comment


      #3
      Cracks start usually from the welds or where the bolt runs through. None of those appear to be that

      Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Tones View Post
        Cracks start usually from the welds or where the bolt runs through. None of those appear to be that

        Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
        These are spot welds?
        2005 ///M3 6MT Coupe Imola/Black Leather

        Build Thread: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-build-journal

        Comment


          #5
          I see what you are pointing out. The problem here is it’s really hard to say with 100% confidence unless you remove that underbody sealer. My guess though, considering a very large portion of our cars have some sort of cracking, this one is likely no different.


          Also, that’s why I hate the “subframe inspected” bs on all these ads lol. Until you drop the subframe and grinded off all the seamsealer, you’re not really going to be able to tell with certainty that your RACP is fine. So if you’re doing all that work anyway to get it all inspected the right way, you’re doing the reinforcement work while you’re in there
          Last edited by BMWahba; 07-31-2020, 04:03 AM.

          Current:

          1997 BMW M3 - Boston Green/Modena
          2003 BMW M3 · Coupe · 6MT - Alpine White/M-Texture Alcantara

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by BMWahba View Post
            I see what you are pointing out. The problem here is it’s really hard to say with 100% confidence unless you remove that underbody sealer. My guess though, considering a very large portion of our cars have some sort of cracking, this one is likely no different.


            Also, that’s why I hate the “subframe inspected” bs on all these ads lol. Until you drop the subframe and grinded off all the seamsealer, you’re not really going to be able to tell with certainty that your RACP is fine. So if you’re doing all that work anyway to get it all inspected the right way, you’re doing the reinforcement work while you’re in there
            It was just something I noticed flipping through the photos. The spot welds appeared to be dark like they had popped and possibly some hairline crack (or maybe just some badly placed dirt). Since it’s not 1000% fractured, I’ll let it play out I guess and not risk damaging the sale for the seller.
            2005 ///M3 6MT Coupe Imola/Black Leather

            Build Thread: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-build-journal

            Comment


              #7
              Those aren’t cracks, look like stain from driving the car during rain... Hairline crack don’t look like this.

              But honestly it doesn’t mean a lot to me if it’s crack or not, they ALL need the reinforcement done!

              Comment


                #8
                those are water spots. I dont see any cracks...

                if the car has a decent amount of miles, assume there are RACP cracks until proven otherwise..... take "subframe inspected, no cracks" with a grain of salt. depends on how inspected it and how it was inspected..... simply putting it on a lift and looking isnt going to cut it. you have to drop the rear end and remove the sealer to thoroughly inspect it... and at that point you might as well slap on reinforcement plates too.
                2005 Phoenix Yellow M3 Coupe 6spd
                2013 Interlagos Blue M3 Coupe 6spd ZCP, CF roof

                Comment


                  #9
                  Right I agree they look like water spots, especially with their rounded shape.

                  Do those spot welds look normal or are they popped? They look similar to what I have seen in some of the reddish videos.

                  Thank you for the education - I do appreciate it. Always learning.
                  2005 ///M3 6MT Coupe Imola/Black Leather

                  Build Thread: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-build-journal

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Inizes View Post
                    Ethically, if this is a failure, do I point it out to potential buyers with less than 12 hours on the auction?
                    Who appointed you the ethics police?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Zero View Post

                      Who appointed you the ethics police?
                      Self appointed I guess? If you saw something wrong would you say something or let someone walk into it.

                      Here’s an example: Car looks great, has a “clean” title, but was in a major accident. Car is being advertised as a clean title car with no mention of the accident. Would you tell people that it was in an accident if you could or say tough shit you didn’t see it.

                      Maybe ethic wasn’t the right word, but I like to look out for people when I can. I didn’t mention anything on the for sale ad and instead asked questions here to educate myself.

                      welcome to the forum.
                      Last edited by Inizes; 07-31-2020, 08:46 AM.
                      2005 ///M3 6MT Coupe Imola/Black Leather

                      Build Thread: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...-build-journal

                      Comment


                        #12
                        My problem with bat platform is they provide cookie cutter (in most cases) descriptions of the cars and rely on the seller to know the car and disclose information (which is usually based on "my mechanic said no problems"). People who work for bat and list the cars dont know the cars and what to look out for. For the 5% fee the buyer pays, they are surely not protected/represented well by bat. A simple ui with picture uploads and descriptions and a comment section...I'm glad they post hp numbers and wheels size, super helpful .

                        There have been many auctions where the community pointed out problems with the cars based on pictures and videos/walk arounds and in some of those bat pulled the auctions. I feel like the community should be splitting the 5% buyer fee for looking out. There is definitely the extreme of scrutinizing every square inch and dust particle based on all the pics, but I feel like you kinda have to since in a lot of cases it's sight unseen buy for "insane" amounts.

                        I would absolutely not be afraid to comment what you think could be a problem, ask for clarifications from the seller, ask for more/better pictures of certain areas, which the seller will provide to a bat representative who will then upload.

                        Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk



                        Last edited by mrgizmo04; 07-31-2020, 08:42 AM.
                        All jobs done as diy - clutch, rod bearings, rear subframe rebush, vanos, headers, cooling, suspension, etc.

                        PM for help in NorCal. Have a lot of specialty tools - vanos, pilot bearing puller, bushing press kit, valve adjustment, fcab, wheel bearing, engine support bar, etc.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I just finished an extensive rear end refresh and reinforcement on my m3. I did many hours of research and with the help of reddish motorsport, it helped me understand the issue on this chassis regardless of year and model. I removed the seam sealer on both the trunk and underside of the car only to find failed spot welds in areas that would be un-noticed.

                          From what I've learned these are inevitable failures on the e46 chassis. My car has relatively soft kw v2 coilovers with only 200tw street tires, a hand full off track days with welded plates on the underside (thinking it was enough). It wasn't until I noticed the seam sealer cracked on the driver side wheel well upon routine inspection. That started my 8 week journey of hours of research, and quarantine project. lol.

                          Based on that BAT ad, the seller looks to have gone out of his way to clean the areas to show there are no cracks on the chassis. And take pretty detailed pictures. Based on the picture you provided, the top corner area looks like a water spot. The 2 lower spot welds with a mark can be questionable. I found areas somewhat similar on my car and upon taking it down to bare metal, is where I found the crack or failed spot weld. Again, I'm not saying it's a crack on that car. It would be hard to confirm without actually taking it to bare metal very carefully. Regardless, these chassis need to get reinforced anyway. I would say that the car is a good start, it doesn't have obvious cracks.

                          Everyone on this forum really should be aware that you NEED to reinforce both the bottom of the RACP and the top on the trunk side, whichever method you prefer, regardless of year. It's not just my opinion, I watched almost all the reddish videos and they show the different failures on this chassis regardless of year, mileage, model. Each varying in severity but all in the same areas.
                          Last edited by enjoy_m3; 07-31-2020, 09:31 AM.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            To me, there does look like a crack on the 2nd picture (2nd from the bottom red arrow), but can't really confirm based on single picture. Wish there were more pictures at a different angle to help.

                            Saw this car on craigslist ad a good while ago (maybe 6 months+?). Surprised it wasn't sold yet.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Zero View Post

                              Who appointed you the ethics police?
                              Solid 1st post. Tell me again, whats wrong with having ethics and looking out for each other?

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