Failed vanos test post Beisan

[maupineda]

So i have become fascinated by how this thing works and love the tech chat on it, so here are some photos for those interested in learning about this thing.

Here you see the pump shaft, notice a small oil passage at the bottom, this mates to a reassessed surface on the back of the disc


reassessed surface on the back of the disc, this is about 0.2mm



Below the front of the disc, where typically you re-drill new smaller holes by around 1mm, you can also see the side holes for the pump pistons, this interface is precise, so the pistons once in, create an air tight cylinder



Below you can see the disc and shaft, and the side holes that must align perfectly for the pump to work



pump piston



If you cap the inner side of the hole, and push the piston, it springs back meaning this is sealed interface once the piston is in



ANY tolerance deviation from OE would make the pump to show losses, Raj said his side holes are tighter, well, that can cause the pistons to bind and not create a pumping pulse, there must be a tiny clearance also for lubrication, or the pistons and disc would just wear out. same with the interface to the shaft. this is why I think the best is to stick to your original set as those items have broken-in together. without a CMM dimensional report showing OE vs Beisan it is impossible to say if they are similar, or one is better to the other, I bet engineers spent many hours defining the right tolerances and clearance for the pump to work effectively. so deviating from the OE design may have consequences unless there is testing data that shows improvement in performance without durability impacts.

[Cubieman]

it can't be slower, it spins at the speed of the camshaft. let me upload some photos so you can see where the critical interfaces are. I have bought a low miles spare VANOS just because this very same drama of low pressure.

I didn't mean slower as in RPM, I just meant slower as kind of general term for decreased oil pressure. I should have used a better term, like lower pressure disc.

I wonder if this indeed a common issue, like you say the vast majority of people probably aren't doing a vanos test or pressure test before or even after.

I very very much wish I would have kept my pump disc, the $300 I got for it (core) is meaningless to me at this point as I will likely spend a least that to fix this issue the way things have been going lately.

[maupineda]

I am surprised Raj didn't talk about the disc/shaft interface. The pressure test should be interesting, I just wish I had a way to prove this disc is slower (IF that is the case!) so I have a better chance of swapping it for a different re-drilled disc if it comes to that. I didn't do a pressure test beforehand, just had that DIS test.

it can't be slower, it spins at the speed of the camshaft. let me upload some photos so you can see where the critical interfaces are. I have bought a low miles spare VANOS just because this very same drama of low pressure.

[Cubieman]

1) "Our oil pump disk side cylinders are slightly tighter that BMW’s and this would give you better vanos oil pressure and performance. So it’s not likely the issue"
These are the pump's pistons/cylinders, but what's about the disk center hole to the disk center shaft clearance? And importantly the small holes connecting the disk 4 tiny pumps to the shaft holes, timing wise? Those holes have to be synchronous to effactively transfer the piston/cylinder pump volume into the shaft.
2) "Please verify with the tech who did the work that the vanos oil pump disk pistons where going in/out of the disk when it was rotated"
Means the small 4 pistons are not seized in the new disk's tighter cylinders. Did you feel the pistons moving freely in the cylinders (preloaded by springs)?
3)"The problem is likely the sprocket parts sticking, particularly because of the S62 diaphragm springs. We have seen this."
The cup shape spring disks only making contact to the hub at a very small area (a circular line) and this is nothing comparing to moving the cam load. Unless the S62 is too thick compare to stock unit and causing interference, I don't think the spring force would cause significant increase friction.

You didn't change the pressure regulator so with a test gauge we should be able to see what is the system oil pressure. I bet it is lower than before, leading to slower response.

I am surprised Raj didn't talk about the disc/shaft interface. The pressure test should be interesting, I just wish I had a way to prove this disc is slower (IF that is the case!) so I have a better chance of swapping it for a different re-drilled disc if it comes to that. I didn't do a pressure test beforehand, just had that DIS test.

[sapote]

I don't really like to post emails, but I feel this is important. This is Raj's response to me asking about the pump disc/solenoid/regulator. I installed the S62 diaphragm springs also as is talked about here:

Our oil pump disk side cylinders are slightly tighter that BMW’s and this would give you better vanos oil pressure and performance. So it’s not likely the issue.
Please verify with the tech who did the work that the vanos oil pump disk pistons where going in/out of the disk when it was rotated.
The solenoid valve body or coil pack will not likely cause this.

The problem is likely the sprocket parts sticking, particularly because of the S62 diaphragm springs. We have seen this.
The solution is to drive the car hard.
If you receive a check engine light, reset it and drive more. The DME stops using the vanos when it generates a vanos related code.
You might need to put 50 miles on the car to resolve this.

1) "Our oil pump disk side cylinders are slightly tighter that BMW’s and this would give you better vanos oil pressure and performance. So it’s not likely the issue"
These are the pump's pistons/cylinders, but what's about the disk center hole to the disk center shaft clearance? And importantly the small holes connecting the disk 4 tiny pumps to the shaft holes, timing wise? Those holes have to be synchronous to effactively transfer the piston/cylinder pump volume into the shaft.
2) "Please verify with the tech who did the work that the vanos oil pump disk pistons where going in/out of the disk when it was rotated"
Means the small 4 pistons are not seized in the new disk's tighter cylinders. Did you feel the pistons moving freely in the cylinders (preloaded by springs)?
3)"The problem is likely the sprocket parts sticking, particularly because of the S62 diaphragm springs. We have seen this."
The cup shape spring disks only making contact to the hub at a very small area (a circular line) and this is nothing comparing to moving the cam load. Unless the S62 is too thick compare to stock unit and causing interference, I don't think the spring force would cause significant increase friction.

You didn't change the pressure regulator so with a test gauge we should be able to see what is the system oil pressure. I bet it is lower than before, leading to slower response.

[Cubieman]

Raj told me to drive "hard" for 50 miles, I just had a "spirited" 20 mile drive, never took it past 7k but punched it numerous times in every gear, took off hard from a stop etc. It would seem maybe possibly it's trending for the better.
Still hard for me to imagine my vanos response time getting back to right at 200ms all around like it was before just because of S62 diaphragms, but what do I know.

First vanos test, about 6 miles of regular driving.


Second vanos test after 20 miles of spirited driving:

[Cubieman]

See below my post from the other thread (https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...re-tests/page2)

Manometer - https://www.ebay.com/itm/201L-158O-1...53.m2749.l2649
Fitting - https://www.ebay.com/itm/M10-x-1-0-S...53.m2749.l2649

And as said above, buy a few sets of crush washers


*************************************************

I have found the same problem, I was thinking about changing the restrictor valve but it seems that based on your experience that is not the issue, and I thought so as the valve only comes into play if pressure surpasses the 115bar setpoint. before that it does nothing, My pressure was about 45-50 when warm, but was 100 when cold. I was very confident of the rebuilt I did as I was very careful to install the seals delicately, but it seems maybe I did not.

By the way, drives fine, no codes, rattles, or performance issues (she pulls hard in any rpm), she has hesitated three or so times on me between 2-3k rpm, and this could be the case, unfortunately . I don't drive her much so maybe the issue is there but I drive very little.

Pressure when cold



Pressure when hot

Very helpful, I ordered parts and will post results. In the meantime maybe I'll get lucky and its those pesky s62s springs

[maupineda]

I don't really like to post emails, but I feel this is important. This is Raj's response to me asking about the pump disc/solenoid/regulator. I installed the S62 diaphragm springs also as is talked about here:

Our oil pump disk side cylinders are slightly tighter that BMW’s and this would give you better vanos oil pressure and performance. So it’s not likely the issue.
Please verify with the tech who did the work that the vanos oil pump disk pistons where going in/out of the disk when it was rotated.
The solenoid valve body or coil pack will not likely cause this.

The problem is likely the sprocket parts sticking, particularly because of the S62 diaphragm springs. We have seen this.
The solution is to drive the car hard.
If you receive a check engine light, reset it and drive more. The DME stops using the vanos when it generates a vanos related code.
You might need to put 50 miles on the car to resolve this.

I will agree that the stiffer sprocket washer springs would slow down the operation, in fact I regret changing these, as that is just not needed in my opinion, you just have more force to overcome. but hey, we learn as we go. we live to learn, don't we?

based on the above, if you measure pressure and is in spec, perhaps a break-in may help, but that is wishful thinking to be honest. post your pressures once you are able to measure.

[maupineda]

See below my post from the other thread (https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...re-tests/page2)

Manometer - https://www.ebay.com/itm/201L-158O-1...53.m2749.l2649
Fitting - https://www.ebay.com/itm/M10-x-1-0-S...53.m2749.l2649

And as said above, buy a few sets of crush washers


*************************************************

I have found the same problem, I was thinking about changing the restrictor valve but it seems that based on your experience that is not the issue, and I thought so as the valve only comes into play if pressure surpasses the 115bar setpoint. before that it does nothing, My pressure was about 45-50 when warm, but was 100 when cold. I was very confident of the rebuilt I did as I was very careful to install the seals delicately, but it seems maybe I did not.

By the way, drives fine, no codes, rattles, or performance issues (she pulls hard in any rpm), she has hesitated three or so times on me between 2-3k rpm, and this could be the case, unfortunately . I don't drive her much so maybe the issue is there but I drive very little.

Pressure when cold



Pressure when hot

[Cubieman]

I don't really like to post emails, but I feel this is important. This is Raj's response to me asking about the pump disc/solenoid/regulator. I installed the S62 diaphragm springs also as is talked about here:

Our oil pump disk side cylinders are slightly tighter that BMW’s and this would give you better vanos oil pressure and performance. So it’s not likely the issue.
Please verify with the tech who did the work that the vanos oil pump disk pistons where going in/out of the disk when it was rotated.
The solenoid valve body or coil pack will not likely cause this.

The problem is likely the sprocket parts sticking, particularly because of the S62 diaphragm springs. We have seen this.
The solution is to drive the car hard.
If you receive a check engine light, reset it and drive more. The DME stops using the vanos when it generates a vanos related code.
You might need to put 50 miles on the car to resolve this.

[maupineda]

I think Lang or prob other shops, maybe bimmerworld or RE, have a vanos test setup with fittings and gauge you can buy. Interesting about the pump disc. Mau, are you saying this about the newer, proprietary disc and not the OE ones he would re-drill 90 degrees offset?

Until we have test data we would not know for sure, right now is a theory. But is interesting to know of two low miles cars with a billet disc with symptoms of low pressure, in my case I measured at 50bar, which is much less than the 115bar spec, however, in my case the car still passes the test in ISTA+, and I don't have other issues other than an OCD trauma knowing I have lower pressure than ideal. But my VANOS reaction time is 300ms which is I’d say on the high side. The OP had times of 200ms and consistent across all solenoids. So we know he was rather good! Now he has clearly a slower VANOS, and the only reason for that would be low pressure or bad solenoids (which are also the things he changed)

i plan to open my VANOS again and swap to an OE re-drilled disc, which is not ideal either (not a matching set) but at least we know is a component subject to OE design, tolerances and quality. This would confirm my theory.

i will post my fittings and meter as well as my pressure readings for the OP. It will take me a few weeks before I cam swap the disc as I am in the process of importing tha car to Mexico

[yhp2009]

They are not OEM, they are manufactured presumably to Raj's specs. I emailed him with my issues, hoping to get this resolved.

Thats interesting. Good luck hope you find a resolution soon

[ATB88]

Oof, that's really frustrating. Good luck man, I hope it gets sorted out quickly. Heads up you might want to get a handful of new crush washers for the banjo bolt that you'll be removing to fit the pressure gauge (in case you do the pressure test multiple times).

[Cubieman]

Are the new Beisan disks (with 2 holes) not oem? If they are custom made that does raise some questions. Ive done the besian refresh and Raj was super helpful, but this i think is a legitimate question. Also to keep in mind is that his VANOS seals are non-oem but they seem to work fine

They are not OEM, they are manufactured presumably to Raj's specs. I emailed him with my issues, hoping to get this resolved.

[Cubieman]

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...6&share_type=t &link_source=app

E46 M3 S54 Vanos pressure tests

I ordered the parts linked, I can't believe my rebuilt vanos is worse off than before, just my luck. Not saying I didn't make a mistake, just not happy of course.