Failed vanos test post Beisan

[yhp2009]

Are the new Beisan disks (with 2 holes) not oem? If they are custom made that does raise some questions. Ive done the besian refresh and Raj was super helpful, but this i think is a legitimate question. Also to keep in mind is that his VANOS seals are non-oem but they seem to work fine

[Tbonem3]

I think Lang or prob other shops, maybe bimmerworld or RE, have a vanos test setup with fittings and gauge you can buy. Interesting about the pump disc. Mau, are you saying this about the newer, proprietary disc and not the OE ones he would re-drill 90 degrees offset?

[Cubieman]

I had that conversation with him and will say I was not just completely sold on. He said his disc is perfect and said my car may have a worn-out pump shaft (where you insert the disc). But how come a car with 43k miles and in very good condition and clean inside, have a worn shaft when the only item that changed was the disc?

he even said I could try and change the shaft but after many hours of analyzing how this works I am convinced the low pressure is due to tolerances between features of the shaft and the disc, this interface is very similar to a rod bearing-crank one, in fact more sensitive, as you want disc to build pressure as it spins around the shaft. There are holes in the shaft and disc, as the disc spins and those holes overlap it creates the suck/pumping effect, if these holes do not line up perfectly there will be pumping losses.

The best thing one can do is test pressure and VANOS before changing anything and if pressure fine, just have the disc re drilled, that way you know you have a match pair ILO using a disc from who knows what car (miles, service history, etc)

many will say there are thousands of successful repairs out there but how many people are actually testing their VANOS after service? I bet veeeery few, so there is no data. And as I said, the car will drive “fine”.

there are two pieces of hardware that are key to VANOS that you changed, so not many things to look at. Either a bad solenoid body assembly, or pump issue (disc)

your seals are fine as you are passing the leak test with just 1.5 degree deviation, so the system is nice and tight, tolerance here is up to 5 degrees.

for the record, a friend and I did the VANOS on his Z4M and we got better results after the service, he had 3 degrees of deviation during leak teat, after the service he had just 1.2 (means he had tired seals, but not completely shot) his time response was unchanged (same as before) but I had him drop the idea of reusing a spare disc he had come by and instead have his own redrilled. In his case we also achieved better timing (smaller adaptations) than before.

Your theory on the pump disc/shaft interface makes sense to me, I very much regret sending my original disc in now, I just assumed the Beisan disc is all I would ever need. Not to knock Beisan, that product may have nothing to do with vanos response time going down, but as noted the pump disc is critical to building pressure and as my previous vanos test was done the day before rebuild that could lend to your bad disc theory.

Could you possibly give me a bit of info on what specific fittings etc I would need to tap into the vanos to preform and oil pressure test?

[maupineda]

Oil was most definitely up to temperature. In fact, I ran a second vanos when I got back home and came up with similar results. I contacted Raj at Besian to see if he can shed some light.

I'll drive it around more tomorrow and re-test it. Just can't help but mess up a good thing.

I had that conversation with him and will say I was not just completely sold on. He said his disc is perfect and said my car may have a worn-out pump shaft (where you insert the disc). But how come a car with 43k miles and in very good condition and clean inside, have a worn shaft when the only item that changed was the disc?

he even said I could try and change the shaft but after many hours of analyzing how this works I am convinced the low pressure is due to tolerances between features of the shaft and the disc, this interface is very similar to a rod bearing-crank one, in fact more sensitive, as you want disc to build pressure as it spins around the shaft. There are holes in the shaft and disc, as the disc spins and those holes overlap it creates the suck/pumping effect, if these holes do not line up perfectly there will be pumping losses.

The best thing one can do is test pressure and VANOS before changing anything and if pressure fine, just have the disc re drilled, that way you know you have a match pair ILO using a disc from who knows what car (miles, service history, etc)

many will say there are thousands of successful repairs out there but how many people are actually testing their VANOS after service? I bet veeeery few, so there is no data. And as I said, the car will drive “fine”.

there are two pieces of hardware that are key to VANOS that you changed, so not many things to look at. Either a bad solenoid body assembly, or pump issue (disc)

your seals are fine as you are passing the leak test with just 1.5 degree deviation, so the system is nice and tight, tolerance here is up to 5 degrees.

for the record, a friend and I did the VANOS on his Z4M and we got better results after the service, he had 3 degrees of deviation during leak teat, after the service he had just 1.2 (means he had tired seals, but not completely shot) his time response was unchanged (same as before) but I had him drop the idea of reusing a spare disc he had come by and instead have his own redrilled. In his case we also achieved better timing (smaller adaptations) than before.

[Cubieman]

Kinda what I was getting at. Oil has to be up to temp too when you run it. Mine failed the first try and passed the second time around.

Oil was most definitely up to temperature. In fact, I ran a second vanos when I got back home and came up with similar results. I contacted Raj at Besian to see if he can shed some light.

I'll drive it around more tomorrow and re-test it. Just can't help but mess up a good thing.

[Icecream]

It was driven, parked, then vanos test was run roughly 5-6 minutes after parking it. Vehicle sat for about 3 months and I drove it carefully tonight. Let it get up to temp. before taking it over 3k, never exceeded 5k during drive tonight.

Any chance a few spirited drives might "set" the seals etc. or is that just wishful thinking?

Kinda what I was getting at. Oil has to be up to temp too when you run it. Mine failed the first try and passed the second time around.

[Cubieman]

Yes, you car is low miles, and so is my Z4M, and in both cases there are symptoms of low pressure. My Vanos takes 300ms to adjust and it should be 200 for a healthy unit. And we both pass leaks, so is not that you screwed the seals. The solenoid pack is unlikely to be the issue or you would have codes, or the VANOS would fail to advance or retard. But if you have a spare, that is easy to test by swapping them out

based on all your data you can do the following from less to more expensive

Measure pressure
borrow and test a pressure regulator valve
borrow and test another valve assembly

if problem remains after the above, no doubt, your pump does not build pressure.

If pump does not build pressure, does that just come down to the disc itself or are there other items to look at? I know I got all 4 springs/"nipples" inserted correctly into the pump disc.

Im glad I performed a successful vanos test less than 24 hours before disassembly, and I'm glad to have people on here that are able to help me out, there is no shop locally that will touch my car with CSL firmware.

I may need to rent a pressure regulator valve and valve body if anyone would be willing. I would make it worth your while.

I sure hope this isn't a problem with the Beisan disc, I sent mine in for a core.

[maupineda]

Yea, I just couldn't leave it alone, just HAD to do the Beisan stuff, well because.

The vehicle has 67K on it.

What specific tools are required to test vanos pressure, you mentioned a manometer?

Do you have a theory that the "new style" beisan disc's may have an issue (low oil press.)?

Thanks.

Yes, you car is low miles, and so is my Z4M, and in both cases there are symptoms of low pressure. My Vanos takes 300ms to adjust and it should be 200 for a healthy unit. And we both pass leaks, so is not that you screwed the seals. The solenoid pack is unlikely to be the issue or you would have codes, or the VANOS would fail to advance or retard. But if you have a spare, that is easy to test by swapping them out

based on all your data you can do the following from less to more expensive

Measure pressure
borrow and test a pressure regulator valve
borrow and test another valve assembly

if problem remains after the above, no doubt, your pump does not build pressure.

[Cubieman]

Man your vanos was perfect before!

i do t think your screwed the seals as you are passing the leak test

what mileage you have on your car?

please measure your VANOS pressure, if it is low I fear the culprit is the disc. I have the same problem, but my VANOS passes the test, but I know my pressure is not to spec as I have tested it. I have bought a spare VANOS unit as I may revisit this again to have the pressure issue addressed. this time around I had the disc of the unit I bought re-drilled.

One thing you will find is that the car drives fine, so this only affects our OCD and yes, not ideal for max performance I guess.

Yea, I just couldn't leave it alone, just HAD to do the Beisan stuff, well because.

The vehicle has 67K on it.

What specific tools are required to test vanos pressure, you mentioned a manometer?

Do you have a theory that the "new style" beisan disc's may have an issue (low oil press.)?

Thanks.

[Cubieman]

Did you run the test right after driving it?

It was driven, parked, then vanos test was run roughly 5-6 minutes after parking it. Vehicle sat for about 3 months and I drove it carefully tonight. Let it get up to temp. before taking it over 3k, never exceeded 5k during drive tonight.

Any chance a few spirited drives might "set" the seals etc. or is that just wishful thinking?

[maupineda]

Great information, thank you very much.

I have the billet disc from Beisan with only 2 holes.
I am sure I have done something wrong or maybe my beisan re-manned solenoid pack is bad as the vehicle passed a vanos test the day before I took the vanos apart.

Here is my vanos test before I took it apart:

Man your vanos was perfect before!

i dont think your screwed the seals as you are passing the leak test

what mileage you have on your car?

please measure your VANOS pressure, if it is low I fear the culprit is the disc. I have the same problem, but my VANOS passes the test, but I know my pressure is not to spec as I have tested it. I have bought a spare VANOS unit as I may revisit this again to have the pressure issue addressed. this time around I had the disc of the unit I bought re-drilled.

One thing you will find is that the car drives fine, so this only affects our OCD and yes, not ideal for max performance I guess.

[Icecream]

Did you run the test right after driving it?

[Cubieman]

your vanos is failing to adjust timing within the spec. I. Your case is taking longer than expected to advance both cams.

this is the translation

“early adjustment time outlet too long”

in the context of the VANOS it means the advancement took too long. The other adjustment which is retarding the cam is ok, thus it does not generate any errors

you can see in your results the advancement took 435 (exhaust) and 484 (intake) milliseconds.

the retardad action took 260ms for both, which is ok. In the case of the Z4M, the tolerance is up to 500ms, but seems for the e46 M3 your values are too slow. Ideally you should see from 180 to 300 ms

The diagnostics are telling you that

1. you can swap the oil pressure regulator (the valve next to the vanos). This maintains pressure inside the VANOS at 115 bar

2. Swap the solenoid valve assembly (valve body with solenoid pack)

3 Swap the entire VANOS

So, based on this it seems you are low in pressure which is causing the VANOS to be slow. And everything you did could have affected this. A few potential root causes

a) You could have a leak on a seal,
b) you could have a failing valve block
c) you could have a failing solenoid pack
d) you could have a failing pressure regulator valve
c) your oil pump is just weak and does not build pressure for the VANOS to adjust timing quickly enough

let me ask you this... is your disk a re-drilled one, or a mew billet unit from Beisan?

i have experienced low pressure in my VANOS after my rebuild, and I got a new billet disc, and I have some suspicions about it which I can elaborate.

if it was me I would buy a manometer and measure the pressure, if under spec, you would know for sure is oil pressure related.

Great information, thank you very much.

I have the billet disc from Beisan with only 2 holes.
I am sure I have done something wrong or maybe my beisan re-manned solenoid pack is bad as the vehicle passed a vanos test the day before I took the vanos apart.

Here is my vanos test before I took it apart:

[maupineda]

your vanos is failing to adjust timing within the spec. In your case is taking longer than expected to advance both cams.

this is the translation

“early adjustment time outlet/inlet too long”

in the context of the VANOS it means the advancement took too long. The other adjustment which is retarding the cam is ok, thus it does not generate any errors

you can see in your results the advancement took 435 (exhaust) and 484 (intake) milliseconds.

the retardad action took 260ms for both, which is ok. In the case of the Z4M, the tolerance is up to 500ms, but seems for the e46 M3 your values are too slow. Ideally you should see from 180 to 300 ms

The diagnostics are telling you that

1. you can swap the oil pressure regulator (the valve next to the vanos). This maintains pressure inside the VANOS at 115 bar

2. Swap the solenoid valve assembly (valve body with solenoid pack)

3 Swap the entire VANOS

So, based on this it seems you are low in pressure which is causing the VANOS to be slow. And everything you did could have affected this. A few potential root causes

a) You could have a leak on a seal,
b) you could have a failing valve block
c) you could have a failing solenoid pack
d) you could have a failing pressure regulator valve
c) your oil pump is just weak and does not build pressure for the VANOS to adjust timing quickly enough

let me ask you this... is your disk a re-drilled one, or a new billet unit from Beisan?

i have experienced low pressure in my VANOS after my rebuild, and I got a new billet disc, and I have some suspicions about it which I can elaborate.

if it was me I would buy a manometer and measure the pressure, if under spec, you would know for sure is oil pressure related.

search for the thread on how to measure VANOS pressure. If you have friend with an M3 you can borrow the regulator and solenoid pack and swap and test, just to discard things before you throw parts at it.

BUT, and this is a big but, makes no sense you passed before and now you don’t. So it has to be something you changed during the service

[Cubieman]

It would seem the highlighted part means "late adjustment" and on both inlet/exhaust. This is when having CSL software isn't so great.

Rough translation of the "1,2,3 list":

1. Pressure relief valve check switch, repeat function test

2. Solenoid valve set renew, repeat function test

3. If error farther occurs hydraulic unit switch