The make or break question....

[O'Neill]

Too many variables as you and Nathan have stated.

I'm in agreement that ring average speed is higher.

[Mike R]

OK lets do another, btg, 19.1km 7:43 CSL driven by Peter (Scandinavian on Northloop) PBox files to prove.

Spa 7km 2:49 (Shimmy, some bloke on here) average speed nearly same again.

Ring full circuit average speed is faster as it has a long flat out straight.

Unfortunately you're comparing two different cars (I believe Shimmy's car is on 18s for track use) along with two different driver skill levels.

You can only get a true indication with the same car and driver with equal circuit knowledge of each track.

Even if they're nigh on identical, it doesn't support the Primate's argument that Spa is the faster circuit.

[Mike R]

Being a regular at the 'ring, I completely understand why an F1 car won't be "quick"* around there - the same reason F1 cars struggle up the hill at Goodward (you only have to watch the Mclaren record breaking run to see how unsuitable the car is on that surface), and Nick very candid in his comments that the car could go much faster, if it wasn't for the surface condition of the track, which meant he had to back out of the throttle where on a smooth surface it would be pinned.

*As in to it's full potential, if the circuit was "suitable" for these cars.

I was of the belief that we were originally discussing road registered cars, all of which put in faster average speeds at the 'ring than they do at Spa, where your original argument was used to attempt to debunk the lap times that the Schirmer cars were putting in at the 'ring, because it was your belief that these cars should be putting in faster average speed times at Spa compared to the 'ring, when it was vice-versa from the evidence and times achieved by these actual cars.

So far all I have seen is evidence of road car lap times for the 'ring giving faster average speeds than their times at Spa, which does not support your theory of it being the other way round.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- ''Gorilla,
I do not understand why you are quoting lap times at Spa achieved by cars that do not run at the 'ring, so no comparison can be made.''


There you go again with those assumptions.

I stated that Spa was quicker than the Ring and was
proven by the stopwatch, you disagreed.

Now your trying to add another diemension by ''assuming''
F1 Cars do not run at the Ring, when any car can test
or run at the Ring, F1 cars included.

F1 cars have run the Ring last recorded was the
BMW with Heidfield.

Spa is still faster.

BMW's PR Stunt at the Ring backfired big time with
Heidfield driving, so much, that it was turned into a
''Photo Shoot''.
Even on ''Best calculations'' he got nowhere near
the Belloff time.

A modern F1 Car will not get anywhere near the
Bellof Time at the Ring.

Read the article and maybe you will understand
why no F1 car is ever going to be faster around the
Ring than Spa.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/bmw-f1-car-hits-ring

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[billyboysm3]

OK lets do another, btg, 19.1km 7:43 CSL driven by Peter (Scandinavian on Northloop) PBox files to prove.

Spa 7km 2:49 (Shimmy, some bloke on here) average speed nearly same again.

Ring full circuit average speed is faster as it has a long flat out straight.

Put a leash on her Turkish,before she gets bitten! And you don't want to get bitten now, do you sweetheart!

[O'Neill]

OK lets do another, btg, 19.1km 7:43 CSL driven by Peter (Scandinavian on Northloop) PBox files to prove.

Spa 7km 2:49 (Shimmy, some bloke on here) average speed nearly same again.

Ring full circuit average speed is faster as it has a long flat out straight.

[Mike R]

If you compare VLN fastest lap in Manthey GT3 (24.3km 8:03) to Manthey GT3 Spa lap time (7km 2:21) there isn't much difference in average speed.

The Sport Auto lap time for cars (where the CSL and GTR achieved 7.50 and 7.22 respectively) is only over 20.6km of the circuit (compared to the full lap of 20.832km).

The combined circuit for VLN races is 25.947km and I thought that the lap record for that was still held by Uwe Alzen at 8:18 in 2012 in the BMW Z4 GTE car?

I'm not sure what circuit combination is used to achieve 24.3km, but what-ever it is, it isn't the normal Sport Auto 20.6k .

[_Nathan_]

"The" Manthey GT3 - there a quite a few and quite a few different specifications...

Also note the VLN lap includes part of the GP circuit which alters things somewhat.

[O'Neill]

If you compare VLN fastest lap in Manthey GT3 (24.3km 8:03) to Manthey GT3 Spa lap time (7km 2:21) there isn't much difference in average speed.

[Mike R]

Gorilla,
I do not understand why you are quoting lap times at Spa achieved by cars that do not run at the 'ring, so no comparison can be made.

For direct comparison to see which circuit is faster, you need to compare like for like IDENTICAL cars.

A GTR does 7.22 around the 'ring - FACT. To just MATCH this average speed around Spa, it would need to be able to do a 2.27 - FACT. Come and rub it in my face when you find a factory GTR capable of doing this, let alone going faster.

Comparing anything other than like for like cars at each circuit is just plain silly and stating that cars from the 80s are "similar" to current LMP cars is just nonsensical.

[mattCSLnut]

Whilst I know what you are thinking, they are entirely different circuits, there are far more similarities between Spa and The Ring than The Ring and Silverstone, Bedford, Cadwell, Outlon Park, etc etc.

The Ring is different due to the amount of blind corners and the danger factor but if you were going to compare it to a 'circuit', Spa would be one of them, and probably the A507 to Buntingford the other :thumbs:

Ring & Spa are definitely more similar then they are entirely different :smokin: They also have very similar weather patterns and their very own micro climates :bigcry:
Yes Spa is shorter and more aggressive but less flowey then the Ring but they are both very fast, both have many sweeping sections with plenty of undulations :119: elevations.
Regardless of different opinions, they are both EPIC :supz: :supz: :supz:

[shimmy]

How can you compare Spa and Ring....really you can't. They are entirely different circuits.

Whilst I know what you are thinking, they are entirely different circuits, there are far more similarities between Spa and The Ring than The Ring and Silverstone, Bedford, Cadwell, Outlon Park, etc etc.

From my records Spa, Silverstone and Monza are the only circuits I have done where lap times are sub 40 secs per mile and I don't think you can equate Silverstone or Monza to the Ring.

The Ring is different due to the amount of blind corners and the danger factor but if you were going to compare it to a 'circuit', Spa would be one of them, and probably the A507 to Buntingford the other :thumbs:

[mattCSLnut]

im def quicker at Spa than the Ring :thumbs:

:hahaha: ... definitely :smt023

[shimmy]

im def quicker at Spa than the Ring :thumbs:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote - ''How can you compare Spa and Ring....really you can't. They are entirely different circuits.

I was not comparing as such just stating the obvious that
Spa is Quicker than the Ring.

Bellof's epic Lap of 6.11 secs is around the GP Track
equates to 202 kmh / 126 mph

At Spa even this year with the
new regs several were under 1.48 and quicker
which is 233 kmh / 144 mph .

Also at this years Spa GP several cars were at 73 %
WOT per lap which would be impossible at the
Ring.


Quote- ''MikeR- you can disagree all you like but
the Stopwatch does not lie or better
still, make any assumptions [remember the assumptions].

Spa is faster than the Ring, that's not according
to the Primate, that's according to the stopwatch.''


No its Not ''' emperial evidence'' just plain certified facts.

Regards,

The Gorilla.