Almost traded my M for a Z28 Camaro...

[m3f_03E36M3_956a950a08]

I have a friend who just loves his Firebird with LTI power. I don't bother trying to point out what is lacking in this model. The biggest problem is that quality control was very slack on the entire F body line. They were made in Quebec and GM didn't bother ever trying to make them great quality cars. They are very neat however, so if they excite you like they do my friend.. why not. Lazy, muscle like torque is a great quality. Believe it or not, you can actually fit a racing Go Kart in the hatchback too.



my stock LT1 T/A ran 13.97 in the 1/4 at 101+

with $250 in bolt ons it ran 13.66 at 104

with under $500 in bolt ons, it ran 13.40 and I sold it. They are by no means slow, but different. If you notice, I'm in an ///M now.



Brandon

[m3f_gasolina]

my options were a brand new SRT-4, or a used M3... ;P



And to all those chevy guys, not really to diss, but did you know the worst thing produced in the USA (anything from lard to furniture) is a GM vehicle? 9 out of 10 of the worlds worst gas guzzlers are GM (all their trucks). GM is the worst engineering company among the 3 (or 4 with Toyota being #2 and making more trucks in the US than GM does) regarding specifications, print GD&T, failure mode analysis, Root Causes, etc. Also the least efficient assembly plants in the world. And I mean US GM. Opel, Saab, Subaru, and the others are nowhere close to being as bad. Granted they are trying to improve, but still miles behind anyone else, even Ford! The best thing they have is their fixed costs of doing buisness, and GMAC, which contributed to more than half of their bottom line numbers (aka profits) thanks to the FED lowering interest rates a couple years back. Ford has been dwindling bancruptcy for the last 3 years, and hiding the numbers by using Ford Financial profits and buying the Ford dealers back in 2001? Daimler does not include Chrysler Financial in their reports, so profits mean PROFITS, and they are all coming from the Chrysler side right now.



BTW, the BEST US OEM right now is by far DaimlerChrysler. Still behind the world in quality, but the one closest and most likely to catch up in this next generation of product. Now only if they don't make a bad turn AGAIN it might actually last, lol. The 300C is a quite remarkable vehicle. The SRT-4 is also quite good and freaking scarry fast. Can you say "EVO for lunch"?



But as we all know, it isn't the bottom line nor the "quite remarkable" of any vehicle, but the absolute finest in every aspect what sets BMW apart. Also, as a private company, there are no shareholders to please by cheaping out the interior and reducing wire guage size, or by firing Bangle. The way the car is built has passion baked in. Toyota does similar with quality and cost efficiency baked in. Both companys are the best at what they do and no one else comes close enough to be a threat.



Anyway, I'll hapilly keep my M3 for as long as I possibly can

[m3f_salty_80d4b8491b]

I guess you haven't read about the abysmal reliability of recent German cars. BMW 745, MB S Class to name two...at the bottom. Hyundai is making more reliable cars.

[m3f_///sleeper_f29d08a5a4]

I think the root of GM's problems were its business plan a few years ago...we talked about it in one of my business classes and it was as follows: "We are in the business to make money, not cars" That should sum up why GM has been doing so poorly.



What's been going on at BMW and Mercedes (euro's in general) to cause the reliability issues? I think its a testiment to their past to see how many pre yr 2000 BMW's on the road...maybe cars are just getting too high-tech/more $hit to fail. Hell, my dad can't even change the oil on his volvo anymore...has to take it to the dealer.

[m3f_97BLKM3COU_0f375e15e2]

No offense, but every company is in business to make money. If you said it the other way "we are in the business to make cars, not money", then something is really wrong.



The fact that they don't make good cars, will ultimately cause them to not make money. If they make great cars, they will make more $. Maybe that is the part of the equation that they have wrong?

[m3f_gasolina]

well, you gotta take JD Powers with a grain of salt as they say. Just like all other industrial metrics out there, they give a good idea, but are meaningless nonetheless. The devil is in the details, and details are what JDPowers and the others lack in lieu of actually getting people to respond to them. Imagine getting a request from JDPowers asking you to write up an essay on your new car instead of 10 questions? How many of us would actually write it up and send it back? The guy who paid 60k for a car and had a check engine light turn on or his heated seats not work or his coolant turning brown at 50 miles is gonna be much more pissed than some first grade teacher who has been driving a Yugo for the last 10 years and just bought Hyundai Sonata which just overheated and got top notch service at the dealer and a loaner. So yeah, MB and BMW have been falling off the charts, but is a hyundai better in quality than any of them? I doubt it. More likely typical Hyundai buyers are less picky and focus much less on the details than the typical BMW owner. Also, typical GM buyers buy out of zealotism and brand loyalty, which is the exact same for BMW and MB owners! So just don't let JDPowers or consumer reports tell you what you want. Use it's advice, but don't forget to test drive the competition too. Or just follow your heart.



Also, the "but every company is in business to make money" comment is just too black and white to be applicable to reality, just like political parties they are too differently the same. Buisness needs to make money, but when the focus of the corporation is profit and not client, buisness suffers. Same the other way around, as Tucker would know. It is a instantaneous balance between client and buisness, which is everchanging ever so slightly. The problem with GM (and most others) is that they are too focused on profit and too slow to react to the client. He who doesn't run occasionally will not be able to catch up whe it is time for everyone to run, if you wanna get all zen-ish. Current buisness success stories are the ones who have managed to change with the changing client to what the client wants. Success requires more than just a portfolio, it requires continuous small adjustments aimed to a long term goal.



Anyhow, I agree BMW and especially MB are getting worse than they were in pre-2000. The situation in Europe and the US makes me belive these problems are not going to go away for awhile. But who knows, GM has been making shitty cars forever, and they still manage to out sell everyone 50 years latter. Sense has nothing to do with it sometimes.



Sorry for pulling the thread soo far off topic, i need my medication

[m3f_BMWMPWR333]

STICK W/ THE ///M!!! :thumbsup:

[m3f_salty_80d4b8491b]

Good answer. I do feel that JD Power is overrated and durability is often confused with reliability. Harley used the Bic Vs. Zippo lighter analogy in their ads many years ago and I feel this applies somewhat with Euro Vs. Hyundai, etc. I think the Euros are behind when it comes to Electronic reliability, with the Japanese kicking their butts. Same with emission controls. We get tested every two years in Ontrario and a Honda or Toyota has to be on death's door to fail. Euros fail all the time at lower mileage than is acceptable.

GM had their day though. I think they were the world leader in manufacturing cars (Not engineering IRS suspension, OHC) in the 50's 60's and very early seventies....then it all went to hell.

That new Vette would be quite a thrill though.

[m3f_m3-dude]

I would love to have one...... :thumbsup: 0-60mph in 4.1 and the quater mile at 12.6@114

[m3f_astan100_7ef66fbe89]

Let's all be honest, there are times when you see a long open stratch of road and you nail the throttle and you kinda go, "hmm...this doesn't really feel all that fast". I bet in that Z28 with mods, you wouldn't say that as often.



I miss the old muscle cars and I'm sad they stopped building them. Would I ever own one? heck no, but it allows for a different breed of sports car driver and a different type of car. I'd rather deal with a gearhead chevy guy than a hardcore r1cer talking about the 400 hp his civic is making because he installed a a CAI, XXXXL exhaust, and super awesome 19" wheels with Nitto tires.



We dont' need to run around sounding like snobs saying those are the worst cars ever...they just are for US. I do see yoru points about reliability and durability though. Muscle cars are a one trick pony that REALLY nails their one trick (straight line acceleration). So, just appreciate them for that and smile approvingly when someone gets one...just dont' buy one yourself.