G82 and E46 side by side

[bmw m3 s50]

a MAJORITY of what is happening to these cars are the governmental restrictions and mandates on safety features as well as fuel efficiencies. These things all add weight and cost more money. That and all the technology getting packed into cars. Fact is, no one buys raw cars. Look at Lamborghini. Everyone talks about manuals but something like only 5-10% of ordered cars (murics and gallardos) were actually ordered with a 6 speed.

Correct, governmental regulations and also cost effectiveness making the cars cheaper in r&d and manufacturing.

Yes, most new cars are autos and DCT because of the buyers. Most of these buyers are buying these cars as status symbol or to get the fastest car available. They sell the car a year or 2 later for newer models. People who buy the manuals are enthusiasts or speculators looking to hold the car which is not the norm for people buying $100k + cars.

[bmw m3 s50]

I still dont understand your point. If BMW truly enlarged the 3/4 series solely for meeting safety requirements, then how much sense does it make that theyre also making the 2 series which is smaller than the e46. People just want bigger cars. Its not more complicated than that really

The m2 is about the same length as the e46 m3 but is wider. The point is the 2 series was not available when the e46 m3 was new. The progression is to increase size for safety standards from the previous model. Case in point the 1 series the predecessor of 2 series was smaller than the 2 series. It is all due to safety reason such as the crash and crumple zones.

Also, yes, also another reason is people are looking for interior space. These are all reasons why cars are getting larger.

Look at the 911. Why is the 911 getting larger and larger. The 911 is a pure sports car, interior space is not a concern for most buyers, yet the car continues to grow for the above reasons.

[Toby22]

but there is definitely still a market for raw sports cars. Especially now that most cars are cushy and big, with only a couple of truly raw models still being produced.

porsche GT4? M2 competition is an amazing car and as rewarding to drive as an e46 m3 in a slightly different way imo. I do think bmw is still trying to please the old school enthusiasts, in a way they don’t go bankrupt lol

[heinzboehmer]

Fact is, no one buys raw cars. Look at Lamborghini. Everyone talks about manuals but something like only 5-10% of ordered cars (murics and gallardos) were actually ordered with a 6 speed.

Not in absolute numbers, but also 70% of 991.2 GT3s were ordered with a manual in the US: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3...ual-take-rate/

Most of the general public would rather have their side view mirrors beep at them than drive an engaging car, but there is definitely still a market for raw sports cars. Especially now that most cars are cushy and big, with only a couple of truly raw models still being produced.

[Kevin2772]

a MAJORITY of what is happening to these cars are the governmental restrictions and mandates on safety features as well as fuel efficiencies. These things all add weight and cost more money. That and all the technology getting packed into cars. Fact is, no one buys raw cars. Look at Lamborghini. Everyone talks about manuals but something like only 5-10% of ordered cars (murics and gallardos) were actually ordered with a 6 speed.

[Toby22]

My dude what are you talking about? Have you not been on bring a trailer? Im not saying our cars are future collectables or anything like that but we are well past the bottom of the depreciation curve.

Show me a comparable performance car from the 80s thats even near the original price of the e30 m3. This should be interesting.

Edit: I meant the e46 m3 have gone up in price, just like the 458 as you mentioned. It has no effect in what Ferrari or bmw aims to do moving forward as we are seeing.

see how you had to include “near original price of the e30 m3”. Being best bang for the buck doesn’t mean revolutionary. Although I can name a few 80’s American performance cars that can take that claim. R32 gtr came out a year after the e30 m3, in 1989.

[lemoose]

And look what e46 m3’s are worth now. Doesn’t matter. Ferrari, Porsche, and yes our beloved BMW have all moved on.

We seem to have a different opinion of what revolutionary means. Look back at all the performance cars available in the 80’s. Legendary cars in production before the s14 was ever put in an m3.

My dude what are you talking about? Have you not been on bring a trailer? Im not saying our cars are future collectables or anything like that but we are well past the bottom of the depreciation curve.

Show me a comparable performance car from the 80s thats even near the original price of the e30 m3. This should be interesting.

[Toby22]

Case and point- look at what 458s trade for now.




The S14? The one that revolutionized 7000 times per minute (also ITBs, and near 100hp/L)? I may not have been around in the 80s, but I think kicking off the whole sports sedan/coupe market might actually be what you would call 'revolutionary.'

And look what e46 m3’s are worth now. Doesn’t matter. Ferrari, Porsche, and yes our beloved BMW have all moved on.

We seem to have a different opinion of what revolutionary means. Look back at all the performance cars available in the 80’s. Legendary motors, before the s14 was ever put in an m3.

[Kcalhoun27]

Ferrari did away with their high revving NA V8’s for turbos and electric motors. Porsche 911’s have 4 wheel steering and turbos.

BMW was producing luxury cars well before the e30 m3 came out. And let’s not pretend that e30 4cyl motor revolutionized anything. BMW have always evolved with the times based on its history

I’m all for keeping the brand as raw as possible. But it’s not just bmw. I get why BMW is making these changes 100%.

BMW as a whole expanded and changed with the times, but the M division went the route that suited them personally. Someone at BMW saw that having the M badge on cars made them desirable and instead of asking why, just put it on everything.

Porsches have had turbos for a long time, that doesnt seem like a strong comparison imo. And even the non turbo Porsches available now are much better cars than anything BMW is putting out.

But hey, im not planning on buying another BMW after this unless its an E34 or an E24, so im not the target market for butt ugly land yachts anyhow

[lemoose]

Ferrari did away with their high revving NA V8’s for turbos and electric motors.

Case and point- look at what 458s trade for now.

And let’s not pretend that e30 4cyl motor revolutionized anything.

The S14? The one that revolutionized 7000 times per minute (also ITBs, and near 100hp/L)? I may not have been around in the 80s, but I think kicking off the whole sports sedan/coupe market might actually be what you would call 'revolutionary.'

[Toby22]

I think the key distinction here between the Porsche and BMW story arcs is that Porsche eponymous halo tech and brand was "Turbo" since the 930. The revvy GT3 brand is a relatively new niche Porsche has pursued only since the 00s. BMW, meanwhile, built its halo brand around around a high-revving ITB concept to which it stayed true all the way through 2010. It was a nuanced concept that couldn't be appreciated by just looking at 0-60 times and HP figures.

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a fan of gatekeeping; but when a company pivots (and dilutes) a brand, now the enthusiast is tasked with the fools errand of explaining why a Mach E is not a Mustang, or an "X4M40 iXdrive M sport" is not an "M" car. Most of us grew up with the notion that M was a "safe space" (lol) for appreciation of subdued styling, revvy engines, and chassis balance. Now, picture your typical X6M owner. We've been lumped into the same club now.

Ferrari did away with their high revving NA V8’s for turbos and electric motors. Porsche 911’s have 4 wheel steering and turbos.

BMW was producing luxury cars well before the e30 m3 came out. And let’s not pretend that e30 4cyl motor revolutionized anything. BMW have always evolved with the times based on its history

I’m all for keeping the brand as raw as possible. But it’s not just bmw. I get why BMW is making these changes 100%.

[lemoose]

even 911’s have gotten chunky and are equipped with turbos

I think the key distinction here between the Porsche and BMW story arcs is that Porsche eponymous halo tech and brand was "Turbo" since the 930. The revvy GT3 brand is a relatively new niche Porsche has pursued only since the 00s. BMW, meanwhile, built its halo brand around around a high-revving ITB concept to which it stayed true all the way through 2010. It was a nuanced concept that couldn't be appreciated by just looking at 0-60 times and HP figures.

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a fan of gatekeeping; but when a company pivots (and dilutes) a brand, now the enthusiast is tasked with the fools errand of explaining why a Mach E is not a Mustang, or an "X4M40 iXdrive M sport" is not an "M" car. Most of us grew up with the notion that M was a "safe space" (lol) for appreciation of subdued styling, revvy engines, and chassis balance. Now, picture your typical X6M owner. We've been lumped into the same club now.

[Toby22]

Agreed regarding the past decade, I'd buy the c7 or GT350 over the new F/G series without question. But as of now everyone's going the same way towards automatic, turbo/electric, all-wheel drive. Eventually BMW was going to sell out anyway. I think being a smaller, independent company means they have to make harder decisions and take on less risk.

The 911 is undoubtedly one of, if not the, best selling and most profitable sports cars. Which is all the more reason for BMW to avoid excess spending for competition in the same, still relatively tiny market share at this point, when there are such drastic changes to be undergone. Furthermore, it seems motorsport and racing aren't as important to sales or image these days; the investment makes less sense. People just want effortless driving and a status symbol, not involvement.

This makes total sense. BMW markets to those that buy these cars new. Not that backyard “enthusiast” that waits 4-8 years after depreciation to buy used. Don’t blame bmw one bit.

even 911’s have gotten chunky and are equipped with turbos

[m3nt0s]

And yet the Gwhatever drives way better than the F30 did 🤣

Based on how the G-chassis performed, that terrifies me. I’d rather buy back my old Mustang and not-drive that than deal with these cars...

[George Hill]

E46 M3
Wheelbase: 107 in
Length: 177 in
Width: 70 in
Height 54 in
Weight: 3300 lbs to 3450 lbs

G82 M4
Wheel Base: 112.5 in
Length: 188.7 in
Width: 74.3 in
Height: 54.8 in
Weight: 3913 lbs

E30 M3(from Wikipedia):
Wheel Base: 100.9 in
Length: 171.1 in
Width: 66.1 in
Height: 53.9 in
Weight: 2568-2998 lbs

E28 M5 (from Wikipedia):
Wheel Base: 103.3 in
Length: 181.9-189 in
Width: 66.9
Height: 55.7 in
Weight: 3109 lbs

Just a sign of the times.