Cold start rattle 2-3 seconds then gone.

[tdott]

My takeaway from this whole experience isn't really anything to do with BE. The shop and Bimmerworld will have to figure that out. I have a simpler, more smooth-brained takeaway:

The symptom (the cold start rattle) was caused from an issue around the bottom end 'area.' I can't and won't say for sure if it was the bearings or improper installation...and I'll likely never know. But replacing the bearings and bolts and retorquing has eliminated the noise. If someone experiences a similar noise, they should take a look at their bearings, bolts, and torques and assess from there.

Agree'd but there is this herd mentality to cause hysteria and speculation incorrectly blaming the part.

[Andratch]

Just trying to catch up on this, but my initial thoughts is siding with Mr R.Collins right now, we've seen many times before of sketchy claims with no data or root cause analysis done, just jumping to conclusions and blaming a part.

Those that can and have provided details often found the root cause to not be the actual bearings themselves rather install error or mistake. Unfortunately this case involves second hand info and only what the shop has shared. Without seeing front and back of all bearings, pictures of the end caps and rod bolts all laid out neatly, it's really only a guessing game. Also since this is an S54 we would have needed to see the state of the oil pump.

There are too many things not shared, that could be covered up or omitted to save the shops reputation, obviously I'm not here to assign blame, just state the different possibilities.

S54 rod bearing replacement procedure has two added complications that S65 don't have.

1. Oil pump needs to be removed and installed correctly
2. mid-cycle rod bolt change

Getting either of those wrong would need to failure.

Then there is the added complication depending on rod bolt chosen, re-using the OEM early rod bolts. OP doesn't mentioned if his 2005 engine had the later style bolts (engine not replaced) and instead new OEM bolts were used. If new OEM bolts were use, I do see him mentioned that the shop thinks they may have used ARP torque spec, which probably isn't repeated 3 times to stretch the bolt like what OEM calls for and uses an angle torque spec which is more complicated and takes more time. Perhaps if the OEM bolts weren't stretched, after a period of time, they loosen, or simply was no longer at the correct spec. (Unless they tracked how much torque it took to remove the oem bolt after, it's hard to know how they can claim it was torqued correctly when checked).

Other potential issues could be oil pump or oil pickup related, which could lead to oil starvation and would cause worn bearings like the condition those BE bearings appear to be in.


Anyway my take away would be that a failure with only this info would be inconclusive and could be manipulated by omission of key facts.


I'm not concerned about BE Bearings having any issue at the moment. I am confident the ones I have installed will not be prone to failure. Until we have more facts, this changes nothing imo.

My takeaway from this whole experience isn't really anything to do with BE. The shop and Bimmerworld will have to figure that out. I have a simpler, more smooth-brained takeaway:

The symptom (the cold start rattle) was caused from an issue around the bottom end 'area.' I can't and won't say for sure if it was the bearings or improper installation...and I'll likely never know. But replacing the bearings and bolts and retorquing has eliminated the noise. If someone experiences a similar noise, they should take a look at their bearings, bolts, and torques and assess from there.

[tdott]

I am not sure if Collins is doing the right thing here saying that there is no problem, especially since he commented on said FB post that he does NOT measure S54 shells, so even if there was a problem, he wouldn’t know?

Just trying to catch up on this, but my initial thoughts is siding with Mr R.Collins right now, we've seen many times before of sketchy claims with no data or root cause analysis done, just jumping to conclusions and blaming a part.

Those that can and have provided details often found the root cause to not be the actual bearings themselves rather install error or mistake. Unfortunately this case involves second hand info and only what the shop has shared. Without seeing front and back of all bearings, pictures of the end caps and rod bolts all laid out neatly, it's really only a guessing game. Also since this is an S54 we would have needed to see the state of the oil pump.

There are too many things not shared, that could be covered up or omitted to save the shops reputation, obviously I'm not here to assign blame, just state the different possibilities.

S54 rod bearing replacement procedure has two added complications that S65 don't have.

1. Oil pump needs to be removed and installed correctly
2. mid-cycle rod bolt change

Getting either of those wrong would need to failure.

Then there is the added complication depending on rod bolt chosen, re-using the OEM early rod bolts. OP doesn't mentioned if his 2005 engine had the later style bolts (engine not replaced) and instead new OEM bolts were used. If new OEM bolts were use, I do see him mentioned that the shop thinks they may have used ARP torque spec, which probably isn't repeated 3 times to stretch the bolt like what OEM calls for and uses an angle torque spec which is more complicated and takes more time. Perhaps if the OEM bolts weren't stretched, after a period of time, they loosen, or simply was no longer at the correct spec. (Unless they tracked how much torque it took to remove the oem bolt after, it's hard to know how they can claim it was torqued correctly when checked).

Other potential issues could be oil pump or oil pickup related, which could lead to oil starvation and would cause worn bearings like the condition those BE bearings appear to be in.


Anyway my take away would be that a failure with only this info would be inconclusive and could be manipulated by omission of key facts.


I'm not concerned about BE Bearings having any issue at the moment. I am confident the ones I have installed will not be prone to failure. Until we have more facts, this changes nothing imo.

[Andratch]

Funny how this looks exactly like my BE bearings. Such a coincidence. Where did you send them for investigation? BE?

The shop that replaced them is working with Bimmerworld to determine next steps. The shop's main concern is getting reimbursed, since they warrantied my repair. Bimmerworld will then go back to BE I assume. I have a good relationship with the shop, so i'll message them in a week or so to see what they did.

[BRiley]

Here is mine for comparison.

[BRiley]

!! BIG UPDATE !!




New WPS bearings going in, and sending the BE's back for investigation.

Funny how this looks exactly like my BE bearings. Such a coincidence. Where did you send them for investigation? BE?

[sometorque]

I am not sure if Collins is doing the right thing here saying that there is no problem, especially since he commented on said FB post that he does NOT measure S54 shells, so even if there was a problem, he wouldn’t know?

Also up until a few months ago I had never heard of S54 BE failures, and then prior to this thread rumors had already started through other channels.

I am not out to salestrash anyone, and badmouth possibly a good product, but I think it’s all a bit too coincidental, and wrong to blame installer error instead of looking into it.

Robert’s response to not measuring was a response to my question in that specific thread in that Facebook group, so glad to see a few others on here taking about this. He did mention that they have a machine to measure bearings down to 0.000005 inch. I asked him if their shells at least get measured by said machine. Not a replacement for hand measuring or checking tolerances, but at least gives me an idea of how tight the consistency is of their shells.

with all that said, I also don’t want to sling blame around, but have been asking him a number of questions to Robert on this subject for the groups visibility. I have a set of BE bearings that just went into my s54, and have right at 100 miles on them. I am sending an oil sample out over the weekend as a precaution. Fingers crossed I’m not a casualty

[George Hill]

I am not sure if Collins is doing the right thing here saying that there is no problem, especially since he commented on said FB post that he does NOT measure S54 shells, so even if there was a problem, he wouldn’t know?

Also up until a few months ago I had never heard of S54 BE failures, and then prior to this thread rumors had already started through other channels.

I am not out to salestrash anyone, and badmouth possibly a good product, but I think it’s all a bit too coincidental, and wrong to blame installer error instead of looking into it.

My point to the OP was that maybe his problem is fixed but if it took 1000 miles to appear, saying its fixed when the new bearings have 5 miles on them COULD be premature.

And I'm not blaming anyone, I'm just saying that the rumor of BE having a recall is not correct and that the owner (1/2) is saying this isn't a known problem with his product.

With all of that said I run BE exclusively on S65/S85 and ONLY BMW on S54 so it really doesn't matter to me if there is or isn't an issue with his S54 bearings...

[bmwfnatic]

Is the problem fixed or is the symptom fixed?

Why did you initially change the bearings?

There is a thread on a FB group where Robert Collins (BE Bearings) replied and said there is NO BE bearing recall in affect. AND that he has no substantiated bearing failure caused by bearings recently.

Just something to think about but if the bearings were improperly installed originally maybe they fixed the repair this go around. OR its just going to take sometime for these to "fail" too.

I am not sure if Collins is doing the right thing here saying that there is no problem, especially since he commented on said FB post that he does NOT measure S54 shells, so even if there was a problem, he wouldn’t know?

Also up until a few months ago I had never heard of S54 BE failures, and then prior to this thread rumors had already started through other channels.

I am not out to salestrash anyone, and badmouth possibly a good product, but I think it’s all a bit too coincidental, and wrong to blame installer error instead of looking into it.

[Giulianomitaly]

Is the problem fixed or is the symptom fixed?

Why did you initially change the bearings?

There is a thread on a FB group where Robert Collins (BE Bearings) replied and said there is NO BE bearing recall in affect. AND that he has no substantiated bearing failure caused by bearings recently.

Just something to think about but if the bearings were improperly installed originally maybe they fixed the repair this go around. OR its just going to take sometime for these to "fail" too.

I don't want to sound like its all doom and gloom, but just wanted to put out another idea and for you to stay vigilant at least in the short term.

*****

Side note, years ago I bought an M Roadster with a failed rod bearing. I pulled it apart and everything LOOKED great except the bearing. I gambled and rolled a new set in it. They last 1000 miles and it knocked the bearing out again (the rod was damaged from the initial failure). So while I thought I got away with it, really it just need sometime to kill the new bearing.

In my case I reversed the faulty bearings with others that were ok and then the opposite... the problem was reversed... now I have fitted everything original and zero problems... let's hope

[Andratch]

Is the problem fixed or is the symptom fixed?

Why did you initially change the bearings?

There is a thread on a FB group where Robert Collins (BE Bearings) replied and said there is NO BE bearing recall in affect. AND that he has no substantiated bearing failure caused by bearings recently.

Just something to think about but if the bearings were improperly installed originally maybe they fixed the repair this go around. OR its just going to take sometime for these to "fail" too.

I don't want to sound like its all doom and gloom, but just wanted to put out another idea and for you to stay vigilant at least in the short term.

*****

Side note, years ago I bought an M Roadster with a failed rod bearing. I pulled it apart and everything LOOKED great except the bearing. I gambled and rolled a new set in it. They last 1000 miles and it knocked the bearing out again (the rod was damaged from the initial failure). So while I thought I got away with it, really it just need sometime to kill the new bearing.

I suppose we'll see in the next few months!

I initially changed the bearings because I knew they were original, and was not sure of their condition (52k miles). It was part of the baselining of the car. The original bearings that came out were actually in nice shape, with predictable but relatively minor wear.



BimmerWorld did not say there was an active recall in place for BE, they just said they were in early stages of investigating a higher than average number of failures from a specific batch. That said, there's no hiding that my new bearings were TRASHED in just a few hundred miles.

Another potential factor is that the shop that changed my bearings told me that "there is no wear in process" - so after a couple hundred miles of light load driving, I had a HPDE scheduled and I used the car in the HPDE. The WPS bearings that are in it now will get babied for the first 1k miles, all below 5k rpm.

With that in mind, I suspect the problem in my case was one of these two:

1) Issue with the bearings themselves, based on BimmerWorld's comment that the specific batch of BE bearings was showing higher than normal warranty returns for spun bearings very shortly after installation
2) Issue with the installation / torquing sequence of the bolts. The shop that installed them normally uses ARP bolts, not OEM, and may not have followed the proper torquing sequence for OEM bolts. This could be exacerbated by the HPDE.

I'm not sure which.

[George Hill]

Is the problem fixed or is the symptom fixed?

Why did you initially change the bearings?

There is a thread on a FB group where Robert Collins (BE Bearings) replied and said there is NO BE bearing recall in affect. AND that he has no substantiated bearing failure caused by bearings recently.

Just something to think about but if the bearings were improperly installed originally maybe they fixed the repair this go around. OR its just going to take sometime for these to "fail" too.

I don't want to sound like its all doom and gloom, but just wanted to put out another idea and for you to stay vigilant at least in the short term.

*****

Side note, years ago I bought an M Roadster with a failed rod bearing. I pulled it apart and everything LOOKED great except the bearing. I gambled and rolled a new set in it. They last 1000 miles and it knocked the bearing out again (the rod was damaged from the initial failure). So while I thought I got away with it, really it just need sometime to kill the new bearing.

[Andratch]

Hey everyone, just wanted to follow up on this after a week of cold starts, driving and listening for the noise.

The cold start rattle is totally gone. Definitely 100% resolved by addressing the rod bearings. Glad to see some others have been able to save their engines from this too!

[bavarian3]

yes I mean the clearance... I have read other threads on acl... good for many and some with problems

thanks for calling it out! I'll keep an eye on them

[Giulianomitaly]

by tolerance, are you referring to clearance?

I'm curious as I have ACL but no problems. only a few hundred miles on them tho

yes I mean the clearance... I have read other threads on acl... good for many and some with problems