E46 M3 values vs. E9X M3 values

[stephen]

You think you’re the only one

I’ll chime in then. The E36 and E46 don’t drive the same. There’s certainly aspects that feel similar between the two, but I wouldn’t give up one for the other.

[Toby22]

I’ll chime in then. The E36 and E46 don’t drive the same. There’s certainly aspects that feel similar between the two, but I wouldn’t give up one for the other.

My original post states the e36 and e46 are too similar so I suggested the 4Runner to contrast the e46

E36 and e46 are too similar. E92 as well for that matter. Get the 4Runner. Have some variety

There’s a lot of functions a 4Runner can do not available in any m3’s. E36 and e46 have similar functions. Similar and same have different meanings

[stephen]

My original post states the e36 and e46 are too similar so I suggested the 4Runner to contrast the e46

No need to be pedantic, you knew what I meant. I simply disagree with the statement that they’re too similar.

There’s a lot of functions a 4Runner can do not available in any m3’s. E36 and e46 have similar functions. Similar and same have different meanings

I’m just stating that the driving experience isn’t similar enough between the E36 and E46 that I would be happy giving up either. Personally, I have no use for a vehicle like a 4Runner but I could see how others might. If it were up to me though, I’d buy a manual E53 over a 4Runner.

[Toby22]

No need to be pedantic, you knew what I meant. I simply disagree with the statement that they’re too similar.



I’m just stating that the driving experience isn’t similar enough between the E36 and E46 that I would be happy giving up either. Personally, I have no use for a vehicle like a 4Runner but I could see how others might. If it were up to me though, I’d buy a manual E53 over a 4Runner.

Fair point. 4runners isn’t for everyone. But OP was specifically debating 4runner vs m3. I was going off that.

[usdmej]

people that buy 4runners never regret buying 4runners it's as simple as that

[stephen]

people that buy 4runners never regret buying 4runners it's as simple as that

That’s because they’re immune to depreciation

[maw1124]

Ha! There will always be a need for a 4Runner or Pathfinder just like there will always be a need for a M3 convertible, or an Audi Wagon, or a Benz S or SL Class.

Icons are iconic.

maw

[Cubieman]

I am only asking this as we have wondered off a bit...

How is the 335i to drive in comparison to the E9x M? It would seem that the N54 motor can be tuned for quite a bit of power if that is your thing and could be set up to handle as well.

I am looking to build a high powered BMW for fun and drag/roll racing but will not do FI on my E46 M, just don't want to modify my M car like that.

The 335i came up and seems to be a viable and somewhat cheap option as far as BMW's go. I am thinking of building the engine out an running a large single turbo or maybe just upgrading the twin turbos on a stock engine.

I'm sure many of you have owned or been in enough 335i's to have an opinion as to whether this is a decent car to modify into a go fast machine.

[loudspeaker69]

I am only asking this as we have wondered off a bit...

How is the 335i to drive in comparison to the E9x M? It would seem that the N54 motor can be tuned for quite a bit of power if that is your thing and could be set up to handle as well.

I am looking to build a high powered BMW for fun and drag/roll racing but will not do FI on my E46 M, just don't want to modify my M car like that.

The 335i came up and seems to be a viable and somewhat cheap option as far as BMW's go. I am thinking of building the engine out an running a large single turbo or maybe just upgrading the twin turbos on a stock engine.

I'm sure many of you have owned or been in enough 335i's to have an opinion as to whether this is a decent car to modify into a go fast machine.

I think the E92 is “so far” was the last mechanical feeling BMW. The electric steering in all BMWs are still not providing the feedback of hydraulic units.

Are they more responsive / faster steering, sure, but not great in terms of feedback.

Ironically, I am not a fan of the standard M steering so far on the E36, E46, E9X. I feel the standard BMW car’s steering have better feel than the M cars. I presume that an M cars steering prolly would be best at 7/8/9/10 tenths.

Either way, I wonder if I should have kept my 335i. Mine was a facelift, which had the N55 motor. The 335is (only came as a facelift) and kept the N54 motor.

The E92 335i (N54/N55) definitely feels stronger in the lower Rev range than a E9X M3.

And even if the power output says the N55 makes the same hp and torque of the N54, the N54 just feels like it pulls harder.

The 335i is a good street car. For street driving it was better than my E36 M3 and my E46 M3.

I feel that the E36 M3 and E46 M3 needs more work to be great at what it is.

The 335i didn’t need as much to be as good at what it was.

Maybe my expectations are too high for M cars ?

[MTiz]

For me personally, I would rather have a completely original car over one that was modded. In most cases (thought usually not in this enthusiast community), when people mod cars they usually mess something up. Broken plastic tabs, the wrong hardware, misalignment, hacked wiring. It hurts me so deep to see that.

See I believed this too. But my car had most of the modifications I planned on doing to it already installed so it was a no-brainer.

[usdmej]

See I believed this too. But my car had most of the modifications I planned on doing to it already installed so it was a no-brainer.

were the cost of the mods not/partially/fully baked into the selling price of the car?

[MTiz]

were the cost of the mods not/partially/fully baked into the selling price of the car?

No actually. My previous owner was selling off most of his collection to upgrade to a bigger garage, so I basically got it for a "fire sale" price.

[bmw]

Just some anecdotal rambling related to the original topic.

I ordered and did European Delivery on a 2011 M3, low option 6spd. "drivers spec" and then went back and did it again in 2013. Same build, Alpine White the first time, Space Gray the 2nd.

I do not much remember driving either car. I remember some highlights of the trips, but by and large the 30,000+ miles on each car stateside was mostly forgettable.

In contrast I remember vividly my first E46 M3, which was a SMG coupe and my daily driver for years. Contrary to most opinions, I loved the SMG because it would just slam the shifts in like a madman in S5/S6, and made the car ridiculously fun to drive as a result. Plus the induction noise once the car was warmed up along with the rev-matched downshifts, just something I've never forgotten .. early morning commutes into work in that car are forever stuck in my brain.

Anyway, I think if you "zoom out", the E46 and E92 are both in the special era where they are safe enough to drive, modern and reliable enough not to be archaic and constant problems, but still remarkably analog in their driving experience. So why choose the E92? At least for me the E46 is the much more engaging driver of the two, and has the quintessential BMW "look" of their high water mark of good design years, so I believe prime examples will command much high values than the E92 ever will.

[Epoustouflant]

Just some anecdotal rambling related to the original topic.

I ordered and did European Delivery on a 2011 M3, low option 6spd. "drivers spec" and then went back and did it again in 2013. Same build, Alpine White the first time, Space Gray the 2nd.

I do not much remember driving either car. I remember some highlights of the trips, but by and large the 30,000+ miles on each car stateside was mostly forgettable.

In contrast I remember vividly my first E46 M3, which was a SMG coupe and my daily driver for years. Contrary to most opinions, I loved the SMG because it would just slam the shifts in like a madman in S5/S6, and made the car ridiculously fun to drive as a result. Plus the induction noise once the car was warmed up along with the rev-matched downshifts, just something I've never forgotten .. early morning commutes into work in that car are forever stuck in my brain.

Anyway, I think if you "zoom out", the E46 and E92 are both in the special era where they are safe enough to drive, modern and reliable enough not to be archaic and constant problems, but still remarkably analog in their driving experience. So why choose the E92? At least for me the E46 is the much more engaging driver of the two, and has the quintessential BMW "look" of their high water mark of good design years, so I believe prime examples will command much high values than the E92 ever will.

The issue with that statement is the current market valuations are pointing to the opposite. The E92 M3 valuations have a higher peak than the E46 M3 as of today. The M3 GTS is 2x the peak of the M3 CSL. LimeRock editions out value any IB 05 ZCP car I've seen.

The E92 M3 is most fun with the MDCT. I'd highly recommend you drive one with it. It's what the engine was engineered for to maximize both fun and performance. Having owned both 6spd and DCT variant of the E92 M3, the 6spd is overhyped and it doesn't command higher valuations in E92 world.

My personal opinion is pretty simple: the tide will lift all boats.

The E46 M3 is riding the nostalgia valuation upswing similar to the 993s and E39 M5s, and it is well deserved. It's a legendary analog car with a classic BMW design. Its valuations will drive up the E9X M3 market as the V8 M3 is objectively a more reliable, higher performing car and subjectively retains or has improved upon the traditional M recipe with its own twist.

The E6X and E9X were peak BMW powertrain engineering eras that were specific to their chassis. For whatever it's worth, SMG3 was a step up over SMG2 and the MDCT is a legendary transmission that's been dropped due to cost cutting.

Back in 2012, this was my personal conundrum when I was looking for a 05 ZCP. A well sorted unit was impossible to find in Canada and even though prices were pretty low (25,000$ CAD). It just wasn't yet seen as a future collectible. I ended up in an E92 M3 6spd instead. I wouldn't have personally looked at an E46 M3 if the prices were similar for equally sorted cars, I think that would resonate with most buyers outside of the collectors and hardcore enthusiasts of that generation.

This is happening now in E60 M5 world. The skyrocketing E39 M5 is shining a light on the E60 M5, the owners' profiles are slowly changing to most enthusiast owned looking to keep these cars on the road and not just do muffler deletes and pimp the streets for a Summer. LCI 6 spd E60s are now well into 30K USD and climbing. They were below 20k a few years ago.

[Obioban]

The issue with that statement is the current market valuations are pointing to the opposite. The E92 M3 valuations have a higher peak than the E46 M3 as of today. The M3 GTS is 2x the peak of the M3 CSL. LimeRock editions out value any IB 05 ZCP car I've seen.

The E92 M3 is most fun with the MDCT. I'd highly recommend you drive one with it. It's what the engine was engineered for to maximize both fun and performance. Having owned both 6spd and DCT variant of the E92 M3, the 6spd is overhyped and it doesn't command higher valuations in E92 world.

My personal opinion is pretty simple: the tide will lift all boats.

The E46 M3 is riding the nostalgia valuation upswing similar to the 993s and E39 M5s, and it is well deserved. It's a legendary analog car with a classic BMW design. Its valuations will drive up the E9X M3 market as the V8 M3 is objectively a more reliable, higher performing car and subjectively retains or has improved upon the traditional M recipe with its own twist.

I disagree with most of this.

Limerock isn't the e46 ZCP equivalent-- e9X ZCP is the e46 ZCP equivalent.

I don't think the e46 is riding on nostalgia-- pretty much every comparison test between the cars across generations results in them saying the e46 combines the best of old BMW with the best of new BMW, resulting in the best overall car.

I don't think all ships are ultimately going to rise-- I think they're going to sink. Gas cars are going to be non viable DDs at some point in the not too distance future (by which I mean, probably <20 years). When they do, the only gas car's that'll make any sense to keep are the max experience cars-- not cars based on passenger sedans, compromised to seat 4.

Also, I think 993 nostalgia is on the down swing at the moment, in favor of older cars (especially 964).

The E6X and E9X were peak BMW powertrain engineering eras that were specific to their chassis. For whatever it's worth, SMG3 was a step up over SMG2 and the MDCT is a legendary transmission that's been dropped due to cost cutting.

Back in 2012, this was my personal conundrum when I was looking for a 05 ZCP. A well sorted unit was impossible to find in Canada and even though prices were pretty low (25,000$ CAD). It just wasn't yet seen as a future collectible. I ended up in an E92 M3 6spd instead. I wouldn't have personally looked at an E46 M3 if the prices were similar for equally sorted cars, I think that would resonate with most buyers outside of the collectors and hardcore enthusiasts of that generation.

This is happening now in E60 M5 world. The skyrocketing E39 M5 is shining a light on the E60 M5, the owners' profiles are slowly changing to most enthusiast owned looking to keep these cars on the road and not just do muffler deletes and pimp the streets for a Summer. LCI 6 spd E60s are now well into 30K USD and climbing. They were below 20k a few years ago.

6 speed e60s are not telling of the overall e60 M5 market-- they made so few of them that they're valuation is far more based on scarcity than desirability.

That said, I think e60 vs e39 is a very different situation than e9X vs e46. The e60 is a significantly better car to drive than the e39. It has better steering (best of all M5 generations), negligible weight gain, harsher ride, better brakes, and a real M engine (by which I mean low torque, high revs, high specific output). It's main downside (reliability) matters less as time passes and people aren't using it for a DD (though I don't really understand why people own M5s for anything other than DD use). Over time, it'll come down to which matters more-- terrible interior and ugly exterior, or being one of the best driving large sedans every made. IMO the e60s are vastly undervalued and the e39s are overvalued (as an e39 M5 owner... albeit a valueless 200,000 mile (at this point) example).

e9X drives nicely, but it's not as enjoyable. When you're not pushing it is feels "normal", and the limits are high enough that you can't really push them on the street, regardless of your recklessness level. The e46 never feels "normal"-- it forces you to have an experience, whether you want to or not. And, you can have a good time at abandoned back roads pace. The e9X's upside from that is that it makes a more comfortable daily, but that doesn't really matter in the long term, as people use cars for that less and less as they get older. As with the e60 M5's lack of reliability compared to the e39 not mattering as much as time passes, the e9X being more reliable than the e46 matters less as time passes-- that is for more important for cars being used as DDs (plus the difference is smaller for e46-- it can be made pretty bomb proof if you lock down the expensive failure modes, whereas you can't really make the e60 reliable). The e9X, unlike the e60, is a steering feel downgrade and significant weight and size increase. The pace advantage of the e9X is less compelling with each year that passes-- anyone that cares about pace shouldn't buy either car, as they're both slow as shit compared to anything new-- and getting slower (relatively).

I think a better analogy (than e39 vs e60) is e30 vs e36 (euro spec). The e36 is faster, more comfortable, has 2 more cylinders, and is more reliable... but also less involving to drive, larger, heavier, worse steering, uglier, and worse interior. Long term, I feel like we know how that ended up, at this point.