E46 M3 values vs. E9X M3 values

[jet_dogg]

Just some anecdotal rambling related to the original topic.

I ordered and did European Delivery on a 2011 M3, low option 6spd. "drivers spec" and then went back and did it again in 2013. Same build, Alpine White the first time, Space Gray the 2nd.

I do not much remember driving either car. I remember some highlights of the trips, but by and large the 30,000+ miles on each car stateside was mostly forgettable.

In contrast I remember vividly my first E46 M3, which was a SMG coupe and my daily driver for years. Contrary to most opinions, I loved the SMG because it would just slam the shifts in like a madman in S5/S6, and made the car ridiculously fun to drive as a result. Plus the induction noise once the car was warmed up along with the rev-matched downshifts, just something I've never forgotten .. early morning commutes into work in that car are forever stuck in my brain.

Anyway, I think if you "zoom out", the E46 and E92 are both in the special era where they are safe enough to drive, modern and reliable enough not to be archaic and constant problems, but still remarkably analog in their driving experience. So why choose the E92? At least for me the E46 is the much more engaging driver of the two, and has the quintessential BMW "look" of their high water mark of good design years, so I believe prime examples will command much high values than the E92 ever will.

This was the exact thing my friend who owns both e46 and e92 summarized to me when I was thinking of an e92 back in 09-10. He said drive an e92 and you'll never sell your e46. Lookin at you Brian.

I doubt e92 would ever rise past e46 in terms of value, though I really don't care bout that. I still like the e92 but I love the e46.

[heinzboehmer]

The e46 never feels "normal"-- it forces you to have an experience, whether you want to or not.

Agree 100%. This is exactly the reason why I own this car.

[maw1124]

Just some anecdotal rambling related to the original topic.

I ordered and did European Delivery on a 2011 M3, low option 6spd. "drivers spec" and then went back and did it again in 2013. Same build, Alpine White the first time, Space Gray the 2nd.

I do not much remember driving either car. I remember some highlights of the trips, but by and large the 30,000+ miles on each car stateside was mostly forgettable.

In contrast I remember vividly my first E46 M3, which was a SMG coupe and my daily driver for years. Contrary to most opinions, I loved the SMG because it would just slam the shifts in like a madman in S5/S6, and made the car ridiculously fun to drive as a result. Plus the induction noise once the car was warmed up along with the rev-matched downshifts, just something I've never forgotten .. early morning commutes into work in that car are forever stuck in my brain.

Anyway, I think if you "zoom out", the E46 and E92 are both in the special era where they are safe enough to drive, modern and reliable enough not to be archaic and constant problems, but still remarkably analog in their driving experience. So why choose the E92? At least for me the E46 is the much more engaging driver of the two, and has the quintessential BMW "look" of their high water mark of good design years, so I believe prime examples will command much high values than the E92 ever will.

What I would say if I could write this well. Thank you.

maw

[yhp2009]

Some great thoughtful points made on both sides. Really enjoying this thread.
I do have a feeling that price trends will constantly shift over time for both the e46 and e9x. Attributes that make either one more "valuable" to the mkt right now could very well become meaningless 20 yrs from now. And vice versa. But i do believe both have the right stuff/pedigree

[oceansize]

I still think in the end rarity and scarcity will trump all else in the market and far too many e46s and e9x were produced. The CSL in a few years punts everything down the road when available for import and then the GTS will do the same. All other very low mileage cars in desirable colors get a bump but as to how much I don't know but I don't think it will be really significant. There is no shortage of quality e46 or e9x. Serious collectors are going to want what most of us can't get. In summary, values for regular e46 and e9x rise but I don't see them getting into Z8 money which is again a fairly rare and scarce car. So enjoy your car unless you really do have something "special".

[Epoustouflant]

I disagree with most of this.

Limerock isn't the e46 ZCP equivalent-- e9X ZCP is the e46 ZCP equivalent.

I don't think the e46 is riding on nostalgia-- pretty much every comparison test between the cars across generations results in them saying the e46 combines the best of old BMW with the best of new BMW, resulting in the best overall car.

I don't think all ships are ultimately going to rise-- I think they're going to sink. Gas cars are going to be non viable DDs at some point in the not too distance future (by which I mean, probably <20 years). When they do, the only gas car's that'll make any sense to keep are the max experience cars-- not cars based on passenger sedans, compromised to seat 4.

Also, I think 993 nostalgia is on the down swing at the moment, in favor of older cars (especially 964).

The E9X has had many LCI special edition cars. Just today, a bone stock frozen blue E92 ZCP sold for 84,000 USD on BAT. That's higher than CSL are priced at. Anyway you slice, the market values the E92 M3 more than the E46 M3 as it is today. Keep in mind it is the least produced M3 of any generation with exception to the E30.

I used the Interlagos Blue (IB) 05-06 ZCP as it is arguably the most sought after spec of the E46 in the US, with under 1,000 produced globally in Coupe.

Aging M cars end up as weekenders for the vast majority of owners and the current demographics of long term owners are people with money. It'll take considerable disincentives to get these people to move away from these platforms IMHO.

Whenever it'll happen, my best bet is they will get regulated out of existence - at which point nobody's going to care anymore between E46 and E9X M3 valuations other than collectors able to afford the licenses.

6 speed e60s are not telling of the overall e60 M5 market-- they made so few of them that they're valuation is far more based on scarcity than desirability.

That said, I think e60 vs e39 is a very different situation than e9X vs e46. The e60 is a significantly better car to drive than the e39. It has better steering (best of all M5 generations), negligible weight gain, harsher ride, better brakes, and a real M engine (by which I mean low torque, high revs, high specific output). It's main downside (reliability) matters less as time passes and people aren't using it for a DD (though I don't really understand why people own M5s for anything other than DD use). Over time, it'll come down to which matters more-- terrible interior and ugly exterior, or being one of the best driving large sedans every made. IMO the e60s are vastly undervalued and the e39s are overvalued (as an e39 M5 owner... albeit a valueless 200,000 mile (at this point) example).

The E60 M5 6spd example was used to highlight the upper range of its market. The E60 M5 SMGs have also appreciated quite considerably. The variance in that market is however much larger as condition and maintenance plays a critical role in setting its value over other M cars. It is, after all, the least reliable BMW M5 they ever produced.

Like you, I truly believe the E60 M5s are undervalued - but it's a tricky market. I laid out my thoughts on M5board. Here's a recap:

It needs a matching ownership demographic to appreciate. There are dynamics at play that are trending towards that.

- Beat up S85s don’t get repaired due to high $$$ needs. They get junkyard’ed or parted out. A V10 M car with all sorts of faults is worth 6,000$.
- E39 M5s are going stratospheric. This will shine a light on the V10 M5s as their value proposition is high.
- One area that is currently holding back the E6X M5/6 from appreciating has a lot to do with the owners profile. Lots of short term, non-enthusiast owners in the M5 ownership groups compared to M3 groups and E39 M5 groups.
- Electrification will drive a desire to reconnect to analog experiences. This will bring an owners profile that has more $$$ to keep these on the road as it will be a premium experience.
- It will drive a resurgence in the aftermarket support as we’ve seen on the E46/39/9X. Lowering ownership costs and providing quality tuning support, which is all but gone now.
- Support means education and DIYs; lowering cost of ownership and reducing the risk profile of this purchase.
- A new crop of long term owners will inherently limit the amount of quality cars for sale. This will drive people to buy lower end V10s and restore. See the E46/39 markets as examples.
- I’m aware and involved in 2x DCT retrofit conversion kit. This could be an infliction point for many higher end, potential owners that don’t want to deal with SMG.

e9X drives nicely, but it's not as enjoyable. When you're not pushing it is feels "normal", and the limits are high enough that you can't really push them on the street, regardless of your recklessness level. The e46 never feels "normal"-- it forces you to have an experience, whether you want to or not. And, you can have a good time at abandoned back roads pace. The e9X's upside from that is that it makes a more comfortable daily, but that doesn't really matter in the long term, as people use cars for that less and less as they get older.

This one is entirely up to interpretation.

The E9X M3 offers a different driving experience, one that's completely dominated by its powertrain. I cannot emphasize enough how a tuned S65 with MDCT is an exotic proposition found in nothing other than Porsche GT cars or Ferraris. There is a massive crossover in Porsche 911 / Cayman and BMW E9X M3 ownership - I being one of them. I came back to the E9X M3 as the Porsche engines just aren't exciting enough outside of GT cars. These cars master the dual experience of manic back road carvers and comfortable daily drivers.

The daily driver potential of these cars is a reflection of technological progress more so than its softness or its lack of driving experience. The E9X M3 suspension is a major step up from the E46 M3 - it shouldn't be faulted for that. 991 GT3s can be easily daily driven - that doesn't take anything away from their rawness and performance potential. That's valuable to a lot of people; we'd be driving LS swapped Miatas otherwise!

My personal interest in an E46 M3 lies around making it a Clubsport / hardcore canyon car - which is IMO the only way it can go if I'd keep the E92 M3 and E60 M5 along with it.

It would compete with the Porsche Cayman 987s in that respect. Having owned a tuned 987.2S, I'd be very curious to compare them. The E9X M3 on the other hand starts off as a blank canvas - a comfortable daily driver with an epic powertrain begging to be unleashed. It's a couple mods away from feeling incredibly raw with a higher performance threshold that's arguably more fun due to the powertrain design.

As with the e60 M5's lack of reliability compared to the e39 not mattering as much as time passes, the e9X being more reliable than the e46 matters less as time passes-- that is for more important for cars being used as DDs (plus the difference is smaller for e46-- it can be made pretty bomb proof if you lock down the expensive failure modes, whereas you can't really make the e60 reliable). The e9X, unlike the e60, is a steering feel downgrade and significant weight and size increase. The pace advantage of the e9X is less compelling with each year that passes-- anyone that cares about pace shouldn't buy either car, as they're both slow as shit compared to anything new-- and getting slower (relatively).

I think a better analogy (than e39 vs e60) is e30 vs e36 (euro spec). The e36 is faster, more comfortable, has 2 more cylinders, and is more reliable... but also less involving to drive, larger, heavier, worse steering, uglier, and worse interior. Long term, I feel like we know how that ended up, at this point.

Reliability is still a major concern and is factored into valuations of these cars, even more so when these concerns are potentially catastrophic. The E46 M3 has a big 3 - the E9X has 1 major concern and requires less upkeep.

The E9X M3 steering is dependant on its tuning due to Servotronic. My Servo was BPM tuned and it feels like a complete tank; it's responsive, tactile, and incredibly stiff - yet I still have the ability to get it back into "comfort" for a drive to the ice cream shop with my girl.

My single hump, stripper spec E92 M3 ZCP with DCT clocks into the 3,4xx lbs. E9X M3 weights vary quite a bit due to the hefty options list. You could option the tits out of it, notably going for a M5 style rear window sunshade - on an M3 (!?). The E9X M3 has a 40mm wheel base increase over the E46 M3. The G80 is 100mm increase over the E9X M3 for reference.

I'm just not seeing the E30 v E36 analogies to the E46 v E90. I'd call it a stretch really.

The E30 is genesis and was produced in 17,000 or so units. It will always trump the valuation of any other M car ever produced for its sheer nostalgia - when it's arguably a pretty lacklustre driving experience. The E36 was mass produced to the tune of 51,000 units and is misstepped encore with no signature components unless we consider its lack of specialness something different to other M3s.

The market valuations are already pretty clear - the E9X is a much more special car than the E36 (euro or not) ever was and is seen as a better value than the E46 per the current market. Time will tell, but it seems like my angle on the tide lifting all boats (atleast in regards to the E46 v E9X M3 topic) is accurate and currently in full swing. The E46 started it, and the E9X has rapidly caught up and arguably surpassed its valuations.

[Obioban]

So many words...

The E9X has had many LCI special edition cars. Just today, a bone stock frozen blue E92 ZCP sold for 84,000 USD on BAT. That's higher than CSL are priced at. Anyway you slice, the market values the E92 M3 more than the E46 M3 as it is today. Keep in mind it is the least produced M3 of any generation with exception to the E30.

I used the Interlagos Blue (IB) 05-06 ZCP as it is arguably the most sought after spec of the E46 in the US, with under 1,000 produced globally in Coupe.

Aging M cars end up as weekenders for the vast majority of owners and the current demographics of long term owners are people with money. It'll take considerable disincentives to get these people to move away from these platforms IMHO.

Whenever it'll happen, my best bet is they will get regulated out of existence - at which point nobody's going to care anymore between E46 and E9X M3 valuations other than collectors able to afford the licenses.

The "just today" $84,000 BaT also happens to be the highest priced e9X on BaT of all time:



It appears to be a bit of an outlier. Also, looking at BaT overall curves, e46 prices are trending up, whereas e9X looks pretty flat.

e46:



Or, a clearer view of e46 values from Hagerty:



And, in non outlier pricing, the most recent CSL sale I can find (last week) sold for $165,000-- double the price of the highest ever BaT e9X...

I don't think an interlagos ZCP is that desirable of a spec, other than being end of line. It's a hand me down from e60 M5 color, that most people view as inferior to the color it replaced (LSB), with an option package that is actually a lot of downgrades (forged 19s on base car to cast 18s on ZCP, drilled rotors are more prone to cracking than non drilled rotors, steering wheel/cruise control control delete, and steering ratio changes aren't upgrades/downgrades, but changes in priority). The price leader in e46 normal cars would be a LSB, post facelift, M alcantara interior, no sunroof, 6mt car. The price leader in e46 special editions would be the GTR.

The E9X M3 offers a different driving experience, one that's completely dominated by its powertrain. I cannot emphasize enough how a tuned S65 with MDCT is an exotic proposition found in nothing other than Porsche GT cars or Ferraris. There is a massive crossover in Porsche 911 / Cayman and BMW E9X M3 ownership - I being one of them. I came back to the E9X M3 as the Porsche engines just aren't exciting enough outside of GT cars. These cars master the dual experience of manic back road carvers and comfortable daily drivers.

The daily driver potential of these cars is a reflection of technological progress more so than its softness or its lack of driving experience. The E9X M3 suspension is a major step up from the E46 M3 - it shouldn't be faulted for that. 991 GT3s can be easily daily driven - that doesn't take anything away from their rawness and performance potential. That's valuable to a lot of people; we'd be driving LS swapped Miatas otherwise!

My personal interest in an E46 M3 lies around making it a Clubsport / hardcore canyon car - which is IMO the only way it can go if I'd keep the E92 M3 and E60 M5 along with it.

It would compete with the Porsche Cayman 987s in that respect. Having owned a tuned 987.2S, I'd be very curious to compare them. The E9X M3 on the other hand starts off as a blank canvas - a comfortable daily driver with an epic powertrain begging to be unleashed. It's a couple mods away from feeling incredibly raw with a higher performance threshold that's arguably more fun due to the powertrain design.

If you remove the powertrain from the equation, the e9X does not feel like a GT3. The GT3, like the e46, never really wants to be driven slowly-- it forces that experience on you. The e9X settles down and feels like a normal car. If you like that, that makes it a better car. If you don't, it's entirely fair to hold that against it.

Bringing powertrain back in, I think it's fair to say that the s54 is more similar to the 996/997 GT3 engine, whereas the s65 is more like the 991+ GT3 engine. The S54 and mezger just feel racier/more pushed to the limit. The 991 engine/s65 rev higher, but they feel less ragged doing it. The S54 feels like it's coming up on exploding at 8000rpm, the s65 feels relaxed at 8400rpm. I'm pretty sure this is the result of the S65 being designed to be stroked in the F8X generation, resulting in it being oversquare. The S54, on the other hand, was the final form/most they could get out of the I6-- making it undersquare, resulting in significantly higher piston speeds than the s65 (or most other engines).

Like the ability of the car to settle down, if that's desirable comes down the the person driving the car. My guess is that, as these cars age, people will care less and less about the comfort ability of the car and more and more about the driving experience they deliver-- it you look at cars older than ours, the ones that do well long term are the ones that deliver the best driving experiences-- not the ones that are the fastest or most comfortable.

Reliability is still a major concern and is factored into valuations of these cars, even more so when these concerns are potentially catastrophic. The E46 M3 has a big 3 - the E9X has 1 major concern and requires less upkeep.

The E9X really has two-- rod bearings and main bearings. Most people address the rod bearings and just roll the dice on the mains, since they require the engine to come out to address.

The E9X M3 steering is dependant on its tuning due to Servotronic. My Servo was BPM tuned and it feels like a complete tank; it's responsive, tactile, and incredibly stiff - yet I still have the ability to get it back into "comfort" for a drive to the ice cream shop with my girl.

Servotronic lets you adjust steering weight, not steering feel. Weight is not the e9X's steering downgrade over e46-- it's feel. I've been down the same road on the e39 (tuning the servotronic to be heavier)... and then put it back to stock, because heavier just meant heavier, not more feelsome/better.

My single hump, stripper spec E92 M3 ZCP with DCT clocks into the 3,4xx lbs. E9X M3 weights vary quite a bit due to the hefty options list. You could option the tits out of it, notably going for a M5 style rear window sunshade - on an M3 (!?).

Have you had your car on a scale? I weighted my friend's e90 M3 6mt, single hump, no sunroof, no sunshade, and it was 3638 lbs-- 553 lbs heavier than my M3, and 252 lbs lighter than my e39 M5. All cars adjusted to a half tank of gas, no driver.







Not that the actual numbers really matter than much-- the e9X feels notably larger/heavier.

The E9X M3 has a 40mm wheel base increase over the E46 M3. The G80 is 100mm increase over the E9X M3 for reference.

I'm just not seeing the E30 v E36 analogies to the E46 v E90. I'd call it a stretch really.

The E30 is genesis and was produced in 17,000 or so units. It will always trump the valuation of any other M car ever produced for its sheer nostalgia - when it's arguably a pretty lacklustre driving experience. The E36 was mass produced to the tune of 51,000 units and is misstepped encore with no signature components unless we consider its lack of specialness something different to other M3s.

The market valuations are already pretty clear - the E9X is a much more special car than the E36 (euro or not) ever was and is seen as a better value than the E46 per the current market. Time will tell, but it seems like my angle on the tide lifting all boats (atleast in regards to the E46 v E9X M3 topic) is accurate and currently in full swing. The E46 started it, and the E9X has rapidly caught up and arguably surpassed its valuations.

Note sure where wheelbases came in, but....
e36 had a 138mm increase over e30
e46 had a 20mm increase over e36
e9X had a 41mm increase over e46
f8X had a 51mm increase over e9X

If there's an outlier in small amount of wheel base increase, it's the e46

e9X was second lowest production numbers, which may help it... but, ultimately, BMW wasn't limiting production, that number was the result of lower demand for the cars than e46. Time will tell if that demand plays out differently as classics. My guess is it won't-- the e46's strengths (looks, driving experience, ease of service) tend to be things people value in classics, whereas the e9X's strengths (comfort, pace) tend to be things people care about less in classics). But, only time will really tell.

... and I don't find the e30 M3 driving experience lackluster AT ALL. It's the only M car that you can really enjoy at the cars limit on the street without hitting go to jail speeds. It's a 4 seater miata, in all the best ways. Many of my favorite driving experiences have been in e30s. It's just amazing to actually be able to push a car on public roads, without being... nearly dead or in jail, and the e30 rewards in hard driving. If you value cars by how fast they are, it's not impressive. If you value cars by driving experience... it's way up on the list, especially for back road street use.

[Albino09]

This may as well be an argument over which color is the best. At this stage, these cars are old enough that any purchase is 100% emotional; you can't explain the differences in performance specs or wheelbases, or even weight (most people don't give a shit). To the point of the original question of this thread , the E9X has a V8 paired with a stick, and fewer headaches to ownership versus an E46, so if you're comparing apples to apples (at least in the US market), the E9X has a higher floor and will likely see a higher ceiling as it ages. Comparing valuations and recent sales now isn't really fair because the oldest E46 is 20 years old, and the oldest E9X is 13. In another 10 years is when we'll see the real collector value of E9X when they become harder to find in good condition.

[Epoustouflant]

So many words...



The "just today" $84,000 BaT also happens to be the highest priced e9X on BaT of all time:



It appears to be a bit of an outlier. Also, looking at BaT overall curves, e46 prices are trending up, whereas e9X looks pretty flat.

e46:



Or, a clearer view of e46 values from Hagerty:


And, in non outlier pricing, the most recent CSL sale I can find (last week) sold for $165,000-- double the price of the highest ever BaT e9X...

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/m...-m3-gts/657299

2011 BMW M3 GTS
€185,000 - €240,000 EUR

Let's keep it apples to apples here.

I don't think an interlagos ZCP is that desirable of a spec, other than being end of line. It's a hand me down from e60 M5 color, that most people view as inferior to the color it replaced (LSB), with an option package that is actually a lot of downgrades (forged 19s on base car to cast 18s on ZCP, drilled rotors are more prone to cracking than non drilled rotors, steering wheel/cruise control control delete, and steering ratio changes aren't upgrades/downgrades, but changes in priority). The price leader in e46 normal cars would be a LSB, post facelift, M alcantara interior, no sunroof, 6mt car. The price leader in e46 special editions would be the GTR.

LSB is indeed the highest E46 M3 ever sold on BAT, albeit a heavily & tastefully modified example.

If you remove the powertrain from the equation, the e9X does not feel like a GT3. The GT3, like the e46, never really wants to be driven slowly-- it forces that experience on you. The e9X settles down and feels like a normal car. If you like that, that makes it a better car. If you don't, it's entirely fair to hold that against it.

We can't remove the powertrain from the equation. That is the most sought after feature of the E9X M3.

Bringing powertrain back in, I think it's fair to say that the s54 is more similar to the 996/997 GT3 engine, whereas the s65 is more like the 991+ GT3 engine. The S54 and mezger just feel racier/more pushed to the limit. The 991 engine/s65 rev higher, but they feel less ragged doing it. The S54 feels like it's coming up on exploding at 8000rpm, the s65 feels relaxed at 8400rpm. I'm pretty sure this is the result of the S65 being designed to be stroked in the F8X generation, resulting in it being oversquare. The S54, on the other hand, was the final form/most they could get out of the I6-- making it undersquare, resulting in significantly higher piston speeds than the s65 (or most other engines).

Like the ability of the car to settle down, if that's desirable comes down the the person driving the car. My guess is that, as these cars age, people will care less and less about the comfort ability of the car and more and more about the driving experience they deliver-- it you look at cars older than ours, the ones that do well long term are the ones that deliver the best driving experiences-- not the ones that are the fastest or most comfortable.

The S65B40 doesn't feel like a 9A1 engine precisely; it's Direct Fuel Injection system already rules it out. The 991 GT3 is a great daily driver actually. I'd agree on the 997, yet these cars weren't the race car for the streets people though they were unless you spec'ed a 997 RS which mostly comes from its lightweight single mass flywheel. Porsche managed to make the GT3 feel civilized in 991 generations largely due to the improved suspension design and PDKS.

The E9X really has two-- rod bearings and main bearings. Most people address the rod bearings and just roll the dice on the mains, since they require the engine to come out to address.

Main bearings are an extremely rare occurrence and the few were seen in Supercharged applications. The most pressing issue is fuel injector issues, yet that is still very much an outlier.

Servotronic lets you adjust steering weight, not steering feel. Weight is not the e9X's steering downgrade over e46-- it's feel. I've been down the same road on the e39 (tuning the servotronic to be heavier)... and then put it back to stock, because heavier just meant heavier, not more feelsome/better.

I'm really not seeing this. You can fit an uprated upper control arm with sealed monoballs if you want more feel. Again, the E9X M3 is a superb blank canvas to take it into the direction you prefer.

Have you had your car on a scale? I weighted my friend's e90 M3 6mt, single hump, no sunroof, no sunshade, and it was 3638 lbs-- 553 lbs heavier than my M3, and 252 lbs lighter than my e39 M5. All cars adjusted to a half tank of gas, no driver.

Not that the actual numbers really matter than much-- the e9X feels notably larger/heavier.

It is undeniably heavier, but it isn't the porker it's made out to be. I'll be personally crossing into 3,3xx territory once I fit a few other lightweight components like the Lithium Ion battery, Recaro seats and the lightened drivetrain. The later is stretching it I'll give you that - yet everything BMW used to make the F8X lighter can be done on the E9X M3. It simply wasn't economically feasible at the time to fit a carbon driveshaft and lithium-ion battery to a factory vehicle.

Again, the point about the E9X M3 being a blank canvas remains. You have that option, and it's something people seem to appreciate about this platform. You can build a 6 min xxx Nurburging car on a stock engine if you'd like. It has a higher ceiling. 500whp is attainable on stroker engines as well.

Note sure where wheelbases came in, but....
e36 had a 138mm increase over e30
e46 had a 20mm increase over e36
e9X had a 41mm increase over e46
f8X had a 51mm increase over e9X

If there's an outlier in small amount of wheel base increase, it's the e46

My numbers came from Wiki.

Agreed on your last point. I very much think the E46 was an extremely well engineered evolution of the E36 rather than an all-out change that was the E9X M3. It had the proper M treatment on aesthetics, a legendary motor and they pushed the enveloped with the SMG when Porsche was still swinging Tiptronic crap to its customers. I also vividly remember the reactions to the V8s, they were mostly negative until people starting driving them.

e9X was second lowest production numbers, which may help it... but, ultimately, BMW wasn't limiting production, that number was the result of lower demand for the cars than e46. Time will tell if that demand plays out differently as classics. My guess is it won't-- the e46's strengths (looks, driving experience, ease of service) tend to be things people value in classics, whereas the e9X's strengths (comfort, pace) tend to be things people care about less in classics). But, only time will really tell.

The lower demand was a direct result of the financial crisis - not inherently lower demand because the car wasn't well received. It outsold the C63 AMG W204 2:1 by all accounts and moped the floor with the RS4, ISF and C63. It was the best Sports Sedan of its generation, like the E46 M3 was.

... and I don't find the e30 M3 driving experience lackluster AT ALL. It's the only M car that you can really enjoy at the cars limit on the street without hitting go to jail speeds. It's a 4 seater miata, in all the best ways. Many of my favorite driving experiences have been in e30s. It's just amazing to actually be able to push a car on public roads, without being... nearly dead or in jail, and the e30 rewards in hard driving. If you value cars by how fast they are, it's not impressive. If you value cars by driving experience... it's way up on the list, especially for back road street use.

I'll definitely agree to the driving experience being a subjective thing and I absolutely respect your perspective on the E30. It would seem your most weighted variable in your personal equation is the ability to hit 10/10 on the streets. That personally isn't mine. I found the E30 buzzy, and slow, without the power needed to throttle steer the car as I can with the E9X. I would have an S2000 over an E30 any day if I was in the market for a small 4 cyl sports car.

There might be a generational gap here, without speaking to your age as I don't know - I am personally 32. I grew up with the E6X and E9X M cars in my late teenage years and they were the cars we woe'd over. They made all the right noises and looked the part. Having the ability to own any naturally M car is truly a privilege and 2 is outright lucky. I hope I can do my part in helping prolong and preserve these cars as you do with NAM3.

[maw1124]

Reading my mind on the generational gap...

maw

[oceansize]

Generation gap definitely plays a role and you can't fault anyone for wanting the cars of their youth. For me there are so many cars from the 80s that I know are complete crap but I still want one lol. Conquest, Fiero, VWs, e30s, audi quattro, 944s, etc, etc. etc.

[usdmej]

this forum is in for a rude awakening as more and more people purchase this car purely on emotion/speculation


the $40k grey interior vert is a good example of what we should be getting used to

[jet_dogg]

at least I will be getting my money back on all factory stuff I am updating if i ever sell (not likely)

[Obioban]

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mc18/monaco/lots/r0033-2011-bmw-m3-gts/657299]https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/m...-m3-gts/657299[/URL]

2011 BMW M3 GTS
€185,000 - €240,000 EUR

Let's keep it apples to apples here.

There's no indication of what that GTS actually sold for, if it sold at all. Also, I went with the most recent CSL sale I could find-- not the all time high, that maybe didn't sell at all :P

We can't remove the powertrain from the equation. That is the most sought after feature of the E9X M3.

The S65B40 doesn't feel like a 9A1 engine precisely; it's Direct Fuel Injection system already rules it out. The 991 GT3 is a great daily driver actually. I'd agree on the 997, yet these cars weren't the race car for the streets people though they were unless you spec'ed a 997 RS which mostly comes from its lightweight single mass flywheel. Porsche managed to make the GT3 feel civilized in 991 generations largely due to the improved suspension design and PDKS.

By "take the powertrain out of the equation", I was attempting for focus on other aspects of the driving experience. I also wasn't trying to say it felt identical to the 9A1-- just that it has a similar under stressed feeling about it, unlike the Mezger/S54. Which, to be fair, is in keeping with the nature of the cars the respective engines are in.

I'm really not seeing this. You can fit an uprated upper control arm with sealed monoballs if you want more feel. Again, the E9X M3 is a superb blank canvas to take it into the direction you prefer.

Amusingly I'm also running a similar monoball control arm in my M5, to uncrapify the steering a bit. They made the steering feel... acceptable. They also add a ton of NHV to a car with camber plates, so pick your poison (happily I have no need for camber plates on the M5). I'd imagine they have the same result in the e9X, since they function pretty identically.

It is undeniably heavier, but it isn't the porker it's made out to be. I'll be personally crossing into 3,3xx territory once I fit a few other lightweight components like the Lithium Ion battery, Recaro seats and the lightened drivetrain. The later is stretching it I'll give you that - yet everything BMW used to make the F8X lighter can be done on the E9X M3. It simply wasn't economically feasible at the time to fit a carbon driveshaft and lithium-ion battery to a factory vehicle.

Again, the point about the E9X M3 being a blank canvas remains. You have that option, and it's something people seem to appreciate about this platform. You can build a 6 min xxx Nurburging car on a stock engine if you'd like. It has a higher ceiling. 500whp is attainable on stroker engines as well.

The blank canvas certainly exists for the e9X, but, like how the e9X can do the weight saving measures that were stock on the F8X... the e46 can do the weight saving measures from the F8X and the e9X (e.g. plastic front fenders, CF roof). That's how I have my car under 3100 lbs, while still retaining a full interior and stock weight muffler. The blank canvas, generally, exists for all cars, but the further you take it from the philosophy the car was originally designed to... the worse your results are likely to be.

My numbers came from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3#E46_generation_(2000%E2%80%932006)]Wiki.[/URL]

Agreed on your last point. I very much think the E46 was an extremely well engineered evolution of the E36 rather than an all-out change that was the E9X M3. It had the proper M treatment on aesthetics, a legendary motor and they pushed the enveloped with the SMG when Porsche was still swinging Tiptronic crap to its customers. I also vividly remember the reactions to the V8s, they were mostly negative until people starting driving them.

I meant, I don’t know why we’re talking about wheelbase. I also pulled my numbers from Wikipedia 😝

Agreed the e46 was an evolution of the e36. Interestingly, it seems to be the only time in BMW's history that they did that, whereas Porsche does it almost every time. Also interestingly, I feel like the e36 euro must have been more impressive in it's day than the e46 was in its day, as spec wise they're not far off (including SMG). But, the e46's same but better evolution (instead of rethink) seems to have made many... forget the e36 exists? I guess me included, since I had two (including a euro spec) e36 M3s, yet today have two e46 M3s and no e36 M3s. In contrast, the e46 and e9X are different enough that discussions like these never really reach a conclusion because ultimately it actually comes down to what you value in a driving experience.

I'll definitely agree to the driving experience being a subjective thing and I absolutely respect your perspective on the E30. It would seem your most weighted variable in your personal equation is the ability to hit 10/10 on the streets. That personally isn't mine. I found the E30 buzzy, and slow, without the power needed to throttle steer the car as I can with the E9X. I would have an S2000 over an E30 any day if I was in the market for a small 4 cyl sports car.

There might be a generational gap here, without speaking to your age as I don't know - I am personally 32. I grew up with the E6X and E9X M cars in my late teenage years and they were the cars we woe'd over. They made all the right noises and looked the part. Having the ability to own any naturally M car is truly a privilege and 2 is outright lucky. I hope I can do my part in helping prolong and preserve these cars as you do with NAM3.

I have to admit, I'm almost exactly 7 years (one BMW generation) older than you. Not sure how to feel about this level of predictability in our tastes.

Absolutely driving a car near it's limit is what I find most rewarding in cars. Extracting the last 2-3% from a car is really where the joy lies for me. That's pretty much the reason I track.
... and you can throttle steering the e30 with ease, if you're at the cornering limit... which, really, is the definition of throttle steering. Throttle steering is really just managing weight transfer front to rear mid corner, and not much power is required to do that.

[yhp2009]

There might be a generational gap here, without speaking to your age as I don't know - I am personally 32. I grew up with the E6X and E9X M cars in my late teenage years and they were the cars we woe'd over.

I have to admit, I'm almost exactly 7 years (one BMW generation) older than you. Not sure how to feel about this level of predictability in our tastes.

Im in the Obioban age bracket and love the e46m3 bar none exactly for the reasons laid out by Epoustouflant with his e9x. The halo effect is real and wouldnt have it any other way