Karbonius Carbon Fibre Stock S54 Plenum

[Obioban]

I feel like this is a better notion for the Z4M people, because they can't run the MAP sensor/tune -- they're stuck with straight Alpha N. For us, there's no issue in getting it to run correctly using the MAP setup.

[///MBan]

Count me in. Been on the fence for the past 2 years. Straight plug and play would be a win win for me.

Thanks - I’ve added you to the list on zpost. We’re up to 17 EOI now, so not far away from the 20 for Karbonius to make a test.

[///MBan]

There have been lots of good comments in threads about how well, if at all, this will work. Karbonius isn’t sure either (see quote below) but is willing to try if they can see there is enough customers to make it worthwhile if it does work.

I can this will be less attractive to M3 owners due to being able to run a factory setup based on a MAP sensor. If I had of bought an M3 (which had actually happened before the seller reneged on our agreement and sold the car to someone else) I would probably have gone with a full CSL setup and never given a thought to an option like this.

But, there are a number of reasons even M3 owners might be interested in this and hopefully we can get gather enough interest to see if it will work.

Karbonius:
”until we made the first unit we didn´t know what will be the sound, if louder or lower sound comparing with CSL, at first I would say lower than CSL, and this could be a problem, expend a lot of money on the mold and finally didn´t get the expected sound !!!”

[///MBan]

We now have 19 EOI and just need one more for the 20 minimum set by Karbonius. If you’re keen, please put your hand up!

[maupineda]

I feel like this is a better notion for the Z4M people, because they can't run the MAP sensor/tune -- they're stuck with straight Alpha N. For us, there's no issue in getting it to run correctly using the MAP setup.

Correct, for us, it is either the carbon replica for a MAF setup or Alpha-N. I have the latter and the car does not have the same caveats as E46 as the Z4 has a better Alpha-N strategy, or so I was told. I even asked if we can add a MAP sensor since the MSS70 is based on MSV70 which can run a MAP sensor. My tuner says the performance gains between MAF and Alpha-N are negligible and not worth the hassle to make a MAP setup work, but he thinks MAF is better in that the car would be fully capable to compensate for hardware variances in aging, performance, etc.

A Carbon replica of the OE box, plus eventuri may be the best of both, expensive, but since when S54 tuning has been cheap :P

[Obioban]

Correct, for us, it is either the carbon replica for a MAF setup or Alpha-N. I have the latter and the car does not have the same caveats as E46 as the Z4 has a better Alpha-N strategy, or so I was told. I even asked if we can add a MAP sensor since the MSS70 is based on MSV70 which can run a MAP sensor. My tuner says the performance gains between MAF and Alpha-N are negligible and not worth the hassle to make a MAP setup work, but he thinks MAF is better in that the car would be fully capable to compensate for hardware variances in aging, performance, etc.

A Carbon replica of the OE box, plus eventuri may be the best of both, expensive, but since when S54 tuning has been cheap :P

I think you might have exchanged an "MAP" and "MAF" in there somewhere, but responding to what I think you're point was-- there shouldn't be any difference in drivability with MAF vs MAP. S65 actually moved moved from MAF to MAP in all e9X M3s.

That said, MAFless/MAPless does not work well over a variety of conditions. For Z4M owners, no MAP option exists, so they only have MAPless Alpha N or MAF-- in that circumstance I'd want a MAF. But, on the e46, where the MAP option exists, with full factory backing (CSL)... no desire for a MAF from me.

There isn't a performance gain from the tuning side of Alpha N, MAF, or MAP in the tuned for conditions-- the reason to not want straight Alpha N is so that the car drives correctly, regardless of environmental conditions. The CSL/MAP or stock MAF based setup both allow for that.

On otherwise modded up cars (full exhaust/cams), the CSL airbox is good for ~10hp. My guess, because I don't see any other explanation, would be that that is due to the elimination of the MAF tubing/etc. So, seems like a worse choice on the e46, to me.

[Slideways]

Posted by terra:

"MSS70 is much closer to the MSV70 used in the N52 cars. Has very little relation to the MSS60 and MSS65 in the M3 and M5. There really isn't much code to truly support a MAP sensor, it'd have to be fairly custom. That said, a well tuned alpha-N MSS70 would likely run better than a CSL MSS54HP. Largely thanks to the use of wide-band O2 sensors. And in fact, some euro N52 cars are alpha-N from the factory and you cannot distinguish them from their MAF counterparts - they run that well."

Based on what he said and also the tech docs (both E9X and CSL) stating the MAP is more of a backup sensor for limp mode (ex. tps failure), I would not waste time or $ on this stock carbon airbox. Well worth trying the CSL airbox and having someone like PCS tune it.

[Obioban]

Posted by terra:

"MSS70 is much closer to the MSV70 used in the N52 cars. Has very little relation to the MSS60 and MSS65 in the M3 and M5. There really isn't much code to truly support a MAP sensor, it'd have to be fairly custom. That said, a well tuned alpha-N MSS70 would likely run better than a CSL MSS54HP. Largely thanks to the use of wide-band O2 sensors. And in fact, some euro N52 cars are alpha-N from the factory and you cannot distinguish them from their MAF counterparts - they run that well."

Based on what he said and also the tech docs (both E9X and CSL) stating the MAP is more of a backup sensor for limp mode (ex. tps failure), I would not waste time or $ on this stock carbon airbox. Well worth trying the CSL airbox and having someone like PCS tune it.

Sounds like the real move for the Z4M would be to find a tuner that could get wideband O2s functioning correctly... but that's probably beyond the scope of effort that anyone wants to put into a low production numbers car.

[Slideways]

Sounds like the real move for the Z4M would be to find a tuner that could get wideband O2s functioning correctly... but that's probably beyond the scope of effort that anyone wants to put into a low production numbers car.

See Martyn's (Martyn's MSS54 tool?) post - https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132481

"It has a pair of wideband O2s fitted as stock... You'll be fine with that! I use the stock WB when logging / tuning without issue... Dashcommand runs via an app on your phone etc so no need for a laptop, the data will be real time."

[Obioban]

See Martyn's (Martyn's MSS54 tool?) post - https://z4-forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132481

"It has a pair of wideband O2s fitted as stock... You'll be fine with that! I use the stock WB when logging / tuning without issue... Dashcommand runs via an app on your phone etc so no need for a laptop, the data will be real time."

In that case, I’m confused— why not use a normal CSL box?

[Slideways]

In that case, I’m confused— why not use a normal CSL box?

My guess is post #12 - https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786101

[///MBan]

My guess is post #12 - https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1786101

That’s the thread that led to the idea of a carbon reproduction of the stock plenum. Some really good discussion from the Z4 perspective.

Another reason for me is that deleting the MAF is illegal in Western Australia. And adding a whopping CF intake is a pretty obvious change, unlike software alone, which is also illegal, so if your car gets checked you are in trouble. At best you are required to change back to stock, at worst you’re given a five figure fine. The overall chances of getting caught are low but I’d prefer not to have to worry about it.

[maupineda]

Sounds like the real move for the Z4M would be to find a tuner that could get wideband O2s functioning correctly... but that's probably beyond the scope of effort that anyone wants to put into a low production numbers car.

There is a tuner who does this actually. He is redoing my tune and he uses the integrated wide band sensors to adjust the calibration. I have a Karb airbox, and would still try a carbon replica just to try something new. If not worth it, i can always go back to Karb or even OE.

[///MBan]

There is a tuner who does this actually. He is redoing my tune and he uses the integrated wide band sensors to adjust the calibration. I have a Karb airbox, and would still try a carbon replica just to try something new. If not worth it, i can always go back to Karb or even OE.

This is kind of my approach as well. The older the S54 gets, the fewer 'new' aftermarket parts will be produced. I'm not planning on selling my Z4, so I'm keen to try out options while I can to find that sweet spot of driver enjoyment with as little compromise as possible.

[///MBan]

We have reached 20 EOI! I will contact Karbonius to work out next steps.

I’ll still add more EOI - the more the better.

For reference, the EOI list is here:

https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900559