S54 Dyno Database

[Slideways]

Hi, im pretty new here but I found this forum due to a current search on S54 tuning issues I'm currently experiencing. Long story short, my 2003 LSB M3 is at Kassel in PA. The car is currently setup with a VF570+ kit running E85(@ 85% content), Kassel recommended injectors and plugs (1000cc I believe??), Radium fuel system to include microglass filter with press regulator, Walbro F900267 fuel pump rated for E85, electric fan setup, current headers are from bimmerworld custom single step with catless "magnaflow" full exhaust (Will be installing a full SS step/catless race exhaust before the next tune correction/session). This is the current build as it stands. The car had a DME issue due to an improperly installed tuned from a previous shop in MD that I will not name. That installed program put my BMW into limp mode and all kinds of EML and CEL lights with bad throttle response. The car was towed to PA and Matt (Kassel) managed to get the car properly coded and a basic tune put onto the car to make it operational and drivable under normal conditions and no throttle issues. Fast forward to the tuning process, currently the car is loosening power after 4k-5k (approx. 50+ or more hp). You could see the curve go up and drop off like a roller-coaster. That is without adding any timing or fuel or touching any parameters. For some reason or another, the car isn't happy at those rpms and its pulling timing (or detonating) as I was told. Matt advised me to do a VANOS test (which the car did pass with flying colors) to limit any mechanical factors. He later stated that it could be a DME related issues and swapped DMEs with a good working one to address the problem. Unfortunately the issue with the car on the dyno still exists at the 4k-5k rpms. Matt is pretty busy at the shop and had to put my car on the back burner until he can spend more time with the car. But in the mean time, I would like to post my situation on here to see if I could get some advice or information that could help with the problem.

If you have covered all the usual bases, the next step might be to check the custom parts in the fuel system or maybe one of the knock sensors is faulty. It would be nice to go back to stock to diagnose a weird problem like this, but it sounds like a fairly custom VF setup based on your description.

[ldmiller78]

Hi, im pretty new here but I found this forum due to a current search on S54 tuning issues I'm currently experiencing. Long story short, my 2003 LSB M3 is at Kassel in PA. The car is currently setup with a VF570+ kit running E85(@ 85% content), Kassel recommended injectors and plugs (1000cc I believe??), Radium fuel system to include microglass filter with press regulator, Walbro F900267 fuel pump rated for E85, electric fan setup, current headers are from bimmerworld custom single step with catless "magnaflow" full exhaust (Will be installing a full SS step/catless race exhaust before the next tune correction/session). This is the current build as it stands. The car had a DME issue due to an improperly installed tuned from a previous shop in MD that I will not name. That installed program put my BMW into limp mode and all kinds of EML and CEL lights with bad throttle response. The car was towed to PA and Matt (Kassel) managed to get the car properly coded and a basic tune put onto the car to make it operational and drivable under normal conditions and no throttle issues. Fast forward to the tuning process, currently the car is loosening power after 4k-5k (approx. 50+ or more hp). You could see the curve go up and drop off like a roller-coaster. That is without adding any timing or fuel or touching any parameters. For some reason or another, the car isn't happy at those rpms and its pulling timing (or detonating) as I was told. Matt advised me to do a VANOS test (which the car did pass with flying colors) to limit any mechanical factors. He later stated that it could be a DME related issues and swapped DMEs with a good working one to address the problem. Unfortunately the issue with the car on the dyno still exists at the 4k-5k rpms. Matt is pretty busy at the shop and had to put my car on the back burner until he can spend more time with the car. But in the mean time, I would like to post my situation on here to see if I could get some advice or information that could help with the problem.

[Anri]

What kit are you developing? I sell an adapter to mate the ZF8 to the S54 and its really the only custom part in my configuration (aside from the trans cooler).

I'll be honest that I have an affection for manual transmissions, my other daily driver is an E53 X5 with a 5MT, but driving this car its just such a hoot. I don't think I would ever put a clutch pedal back in it at this point, with the paddle shifters its just a riot to drive on the street AND on the track.

I am squaring together a kit using 5spd light weight
gear box. I am very stubborn on the tranny weight to
be as low as possible. Fuck those boat anchor 150lb+
which affects the car front to rear bias.... yeah yeah I get
it its low to the ground and back but it is still connected to
the engine!

It will have racing-oriented ratios.The gear box will be
track focused and street friendly!. 0-62mph will be okay
which is not important for our cars...

Regards,
Anri

[George Hill]

Crazy that it had 3.15's and still did decently but yeah those 4.44's dropped almost half a second in the 1/4! I think the craziest part is it's running all these with a slow 60 ft (2.2-2.3). With a 1.6-1.7 60 ft it would be running low 12's. In theory with cams, weight reduction and a good launch this car could be running mid to low 11's all motor. Really makes me want to Draggy my car and see what it does with stock cams vs upgraded cams, bigger exhaust and headers and 3.91 gears.

Yes, we were all blown away it had 3.15s in it, night and day difference in just the overall drivability everywhere.

Dragy is a really cool tool, I've had it for years, but just recently started playing with it and using it for data confirmation like this. Whats really nice is that the car pretty much runs the same out the back now no matter what so I can use it to test 1/8th mile or even 330' to get that data without having to make full quarter mile passes, just really easy to make a change, test, make a change, test, etc.

And you are right, it still had a terrible 60', if it goes as fast as it ever did with the MT then it will go 12.49 just with that gain which will likely lead to a faster time overall so I really think its got some 12.3x's in it as is. I don't think it's going to go 11s in the configuration it is in but the next step is putting the Karb box back on it and getting Hassan to tune it. *We pulled it off originally as when the car leaves on the transbrake it is around 2200rpm which would just cause a severe bog, but Hassan has the tune figured out to make these engines run with high load at low RPMs so we'll see what that gains us HP wise and 1/4 mile wise. And depending what happens with that we'll send a spare converter to CircleD and have them build us a custom high(er) stall unit.

[George Hill]

(I am in a process of making a kit for those who are interest in
manual transmission option for E46M3 owners)

DCT type gear boxes are nice and sure the shifting is faster
than manual-clutch type but one thing for sure those who
are after more fun Manual Gear box all day every day. More fun
to have at the track than 2 pedal, at least for me.

Regards
Anri

Anri,
I have not scaled the car since I've got the car to its current weight, but I bet its around 3150 without me in it. Maybe I should do that this week... My ZF8 setup is probably 130-140# heavier than a light flywheel ZF5 setup! I have a S6-53 6MT in it previously and that thing is heavy too, but still its maybe 20# or so lighter than the auto.

What kit are you developing? I sell an adapter to mate the ZF8 to the S54 and its really the only custom part in my configuration (aside from the trans cooler).

I'll be honest that I have an affection for manual transmissions, my other daily driver is an E53 X5 with a 5MT, but driving this car its just such a hoot. I don't think I would ever put a clutch pedal back in it at this point, with the paddle shifters its just a riot to drive on the street AND on the track.

[EthanolTurbo]

I don't want to divulge to far from the point of the thread, but mph is an indicator of hp so maybe its another data point for some. I just double checked my numbers as I thought the car trapped just as fast with the 6MT, but thats not the case:

This was our Hot Rod Drag Week setup, 6MT, Euro headers, Karb Plenum, Alpha-N tune and 3.15 gears! We thought the car was heat soaking towards the end of the week so after we were officially finished we pulled the hood (ran the whole week with it sealed) and knocked out a 12.89 @ 107.6, we tried to back it up, but I'm not a great driver, lol.




Then at Sick Week the setup was ZF8, Stock intake with Dinan CAI, MAF tune and 3.15 gears.




Then a couple weeks ago I decided to put some gear in the car, my paperwork said it had a 3.46LSD in it and I never verified. When I got it a part I found it had a 3.15 ratio, I swapped in 4.44s and it completely woke it up down low. From a stop it would not spin the 275 RS4s, now there is not hope to keep them hooked up so I'm working on the traction now.

3.15s:



4.44s:



So it looks like my memory was a bit off, it trapped 108.xx (I really thought it went faster at the track, but I can't find the slips to back it up, maybe we were doing the match and showed it had the opportunity) at the track and then we backed up the other numbers with the dragy which were 110.xx. There is a private track down coming up at Texas Motorplex that I might go to and see if we can break these 325 axle shafts lol.

Crazy that it had 3.15's and still did decently but yeah those 4.44's dropped almost half a second in the 1/4! I think the craziest part is it's running all these with a slow 60 ft (2.2-2.3). With a 1.6-1.7 60 ft it would be running low 12's. In theory with cams, weight reduction and a good launch this car could be running mid to low 11's all motor. Really makes me want to Draggy my car and see what it does with stock cams vs upgraded cams, bigger exhaust and headers and 3.91 gears.

[Anri]

Anri,
To be fair their dyno has been consistently the same for years, just higher than all the other DJs we've used.

And for the ZF8, if we say that their dyno is 14 +/- high that would put Eileen down 24 with the ZF8 . BUT what's interesting is she still runs 111mph +/- in the quarter mile

George,

The "Tamagotchi" 8 speed has advantages and disadvantages.

-Heavy
-Requires oil cooler
-Oil lines
-8 speed (2more gear friction)


It's a Win Lose scenario for sure but the scale is heavier on the
Win scenario

Properly geared set up can easy override the negatives!

Gearing is Magic, it can make under powered car or heavy car feel
light and fast..


You proved it with your quarter miles test. I don't know how
heavy your Wagon/Kombi is but it must be little heavier than std
E46M3 6spd box ? Say it is heavier, it does not matter from the
disadvantages the 8 speed has but the close-ratios box overrides
the negatives.

As far as I can see the diff is 4.44. That means that you made
the gears ratios more effective in the second part.

The RPM drop on closer ratios gear box will keep the engine
over all in higher HP window.


(I am in a process of making a kit for those who are interest in
manual transmission option for E46M3 owners)

DCT type gear boxes are nice and sure the shifting is faster
than manual-clutch type but one thing for sure those who
are after more fun Manual Gear box all day every day. More fun
to have at the track than 2 pedal, at least for me.

Regards
Anri

[George Hill]

111 mph trap for what amounts to a stockish power car is nuts. I think most E46 M3's that magazines tested were like 107 mph trap. 111 is E90 M3/first gen 5.0 Coyote Mustang level. Very impressive results with the ZF8. I'm personally trying to get my M3 to trap around 120ish in the 1/4. Should be doable with the upcoming power increase at this weight.

I don't want to divulge to far from the point of the thread, but mph is an indicator of hp so maybe its another data point for some. I just double checked my numbers as I thought the car trapped just as fast with the 6MT, but thats not the case:

This was our Hot Rod Drag Week setup, 6MT, Euro headers, Karb Plenum, Alpha-N tune and 3.15 gears! We thought the car was heat soaking towards the end of the week so after we were officially finished we pulled the hood (ran the whole week with it sealed) and knocked out a 12.89 @ 107.6, we tried to back it up, but I'm not a great driver, lol.




Then at Sick Week the setup was ZF8, Stock intake with Dinan CAI, MAF tune and 3.15 gears.




Then a couple weeks ago I decided to put some gear in the car, my paperwork said it had a 3.46LSD in it and I never verified. When I got it a part I found it had a 3.15 ratio, I swapped in 4.44s and it completely woke it up down low. From a stop it would not spin the 275 RS4s, now there is not hope to keep them hooked up so I'm working on the traction now.

3.15s:



4.44s:



So it looks like my memory was a bit off, it trapped 108.xx (I really thought it went faster at the track, but I can't find the slips to back it up, maybe we were doing the match and showed it had the opportunity) at the track and then we backed up the other numbers with the dragy which were 110.xx. There is a private track down coming up at Texas Motorplex that I might go to and see if we can break these 325 axle shafts lol.

[EthanolTurbo]

Anri,
To be fair their dyno has been consistently the same for years, just higher than all the other DJs we've used.

And for the ZF8, if we say that their dyno is 14 +/- high that would put Eileen down 24 with the ZF8 . BUT what's interesting is she still runs 111mph +/- in the quarter mile which from what I could find is as much as 7mph over a stock M3 which would then indicate the power is a decent more or maybe the drivetrain is less in lower gears. The other side is that the stock ZF8 equipped cars seem to make the same power with auto vs manual... is there programming to give the auto equipped cars more power considering drivetrain loss? IDK, lots of questions and we are just starting to try to answer them, ha.

The KK headers DO make more top end power than these headers so again not a completely valid comparison, the next car will get a 100% apples to apples swap before and after dyno test.




While Eileen is first and foremost a street car I do track her a lot (road and drag). With the ZF8 the TC is so tight she just can't get moving off the line so the 60' is terrible (if we can get the 60' down to the best ever 6MT 60' she's gonna fly as there's almost .3 sec to be gained just in the 60'!). We were thinking maybe the torque converter lock settings could be manipulated to allow the engine to get moving faster, so here's a couple graphs with the TC lock-up getting played around with (disregard the max numbers as the lockup is skewing those numbers). We didn't make many pulls because we were looking for a significant change, which we didn't get but the data is interesting (the other pulls were all with the TC locked the entire run). We'll back it up with some road tests as well.
Green - TC unlocked full run
Blue - TC locked at 5300 RPM
Red - TC locked at 7000 RPM

111 mph trap for what amounts to a stockish power car is nuts. I think most E46 M3's that magazines tested were like 107 mph trap. 111 is E90 M3/first gen 5.0 Coyote Mustang level. Very impressive results with the ZF8. I'm personally trying to get my M3 to trap around 120ish in the 1/4. Should be doable with the upcoming power increase at this weight.

[George Hill]

Hi George,

My eye was on the Eileen with the mods and nice flame under the rear door :-)
but yes I did not pay attention to the blue car.

A dyno owner should put some maintenance on the dyno and if it's used on
daily basis then ones every 2 months a shop car which make same power
should be put on to make sure the dyno is reading accurate.

Regards
Anri

Anri,
To be fair their dyno has been consistently the same for years, just higher than all the other DJs we've used.

And for the ZF8, if we say that their dyno is 14 +/- high that would put Eileen down 24 with the ZF8 . BUT what's interesting is she still runs 111mph +/- in the quarter mile which from what I could find is as much as 7mph over a stock M3 which would then indicate the power is a decent more or maybe the drivetrain is less in lower gears. The other side is that the stock ZF8 equipped cars seem to make the same power with auto vs manual... is there programming to give the auto equipped cars more power considering drivetrain loss? IDK, lots of questions and we are just starting to try to answer them, ha.

The KK headers DO make more top end power than these headers so again not a completely valid comparison, the next car will get a 100% apples to apples swap before and after dyno test.




While Eileen is first and foremost a street car I do track her a lot (road and drag). With the ZF8 the TC is so tight she just can't get moving off the line so the 60' is terrible (if we can get the 60' down to the best ever 6MT 60' she's gonna fly as there's almost .3 sec to be gained just in the 60'!). We were thinking maybe the torque converter lock settings could be manipulated to allow the engine to get moving faster, so here's a couple graphs with the TC lock-up getting played around with (disregard the max numbers as the lockup is skewing those numbers). We didn't make many pulls because we were looking for a significant change, which we didn't get but the data is interesting (the other pulls were all with the TC locked the entire run). We'll back it up with some road tests as well.
Green - TC unlocked full run
Blue - TC locked at 5300 RPM
Red - TC locked at 7000 RPM

[Anri]

Hi Anri,
I think you misread my post.

The blue M3 is stock, it has 0 modifications, not even an air filter. We put it on the dyno to see what it makes in this configuration and now that we have a baseline number we will swap on the SS V1 headers/cats and down the road it will get a Dinan CAI and Muffler. So considering this car makes 294 avg and compared to your numbers of 275-285 that is why I think this dyno is optimistic.

My wagon, Eileen, has made previously 307whp when it had the 6MT and KK headers on a stock Euro M3 tune on a different dynojet. That facility no longer rents their dyno to the public which is why I have her on this one. I've had my hands on a few ZF 8HP45 swaps now and every one seems to be down on power with the auto compared to the manual transmission, we were curious if Eileen is as well and I think this confirms that she follows that same pattern as the other cars. Its not an apples to apples comparison but it certainly trends that way.

Hi George,

My eye was on the Eileen with the mods and nice flame under the rear door :-)
but yes I did not pay attention to the blue car.

A dyno owner should put some maintenance on the dyno and if it's used on
daily basis then ones every 2 months a shop car which make same power
should be put on to make sure the dyno is reading accurate.

The dyno shop I use they do that with a car which makes the same amount of
power every single time, this is done every 4months. This way the Business
stays desired to-go-to Dyno.

I will not mention names but ones the "word' is out there that X dyno shop
dynamometer reads on the happy side...people avoid to go there.

Some Dyno owners don't care from the fact that the dyno reads either way
low or hi their moto is who cares from the numbers its a tool to see before and
after upgrades. Nothing wrong with that but not everybody cup of tea..


Absolutely normal...Eileen lost power with the "Tamagotchi" 8 speed box. Its Auto
box and the fact it has 2 more gears, creates friction losses. To my surprise is
not that bad only 10 wheel.

Regards
Anri

[George Hill]

When you say stock you should be more specific.

...

I am afraid to mentioned that for a stock engine with the mods you
have you are actually down on power..

Regards,
Anri

Hi Anri,
I think you misread my post.

The blue M3 is stock, it has 0 modifications, not even an air filter. We put it on the dyno to see what it makes in this configuration and now that we have a baseline number we will swap on the SS V1 headers/cats and down the road it will get a Dinan CAI and Muffler. So considering this car makes 294 avg and compared to your numbers of 275-285 that is why I think this dyno is optimistic.

My wagon, Eileen, has made previously 307whp when it had the 6MT and KK headers on a stock Euro M3 tune on a different dynojet. That facility no longer rents their dyno to the public which is why I have her on this one. I've had my hands on a few ZF 8HP45 swaps now and every one seems to be down on power with the auto compared to the manual transmission, we were curious if Eileen is as well and I think this confirms that she follows that same pattern as the other cars. Its not an apples to apples comparison but it certainly trends that way.

[Anri]

I don't think that a stock S54 makes 294whp on the average dynojet dyno.

We've also had a car on their dyno (at the old location, but same machine) that then went on a couple other dynojet's and made significantly less on those. Either way though, in this situation the number doesn't matter, it's the delta we are interested in.

Hi,

When you say stock you should be more specific.

The cars above you have dynoed are not stock. Even if you
change the intake/filter system is not considered stock any more.

In your case above you have full exhaust system and a tune,

If we bring a bone stock M3 from EU market and put it on the dyno
it will show more power than US M3 same engine.

If you take un-touched US M3 and put it on the Dyno-Jet assuming
cranking compression is min 185psi on all cyl and vanos timing is
perfect they make all day 275-285rwhp SAE Dyno-Jet. I have access to
around 20+ S54s with various stages and performance parts. You
should not example one s54 did not make power on the same dyno
if you tell me 20 cars sure, but 1..

Removing the exhaust restrictions and tweaking the ignition timing
map and Vanos map it will add power.

I am afraid to mentioned that for a stock engine with the mods you
have you are actually down on power..

Regards,
Anri

[George Hill]

George,

Could you explain yourself why do you think
the numbers are optimistic ?

Regards,
Anri.

I don't think that a stock S54 makes 294whp on the average dynojet dyno.

We've also had a car on their dyno (at the old location, but same machine) that then went on a couple other dynojet's and made significantly less on those. Either way though, in this situation the number doesn't matter, it's the delta we are interested in.

[Anri]

I think the dyno is optimistic

George,

Could you explain yourself why do you think
the numbers are optimistic ?

Regards,
Anri.