Suggestions for Dual-Purposed Coilovers for Tracking and Spirited Driving

[tlow98]

Yes and Yes (depending upon your requirements).

Both the MCS and Ohlins R&T are head and shoulders better than the TCK Koni offering.

MCS dampers have a unique blow-off valve that manage high speed compression hits where shaft speed velocities can create significant increases in compression damping forces. These blow off values are entirely unique to MCS and minimize a compression strike minimizing a large loss of grip in street applications and providing comfortable road manners. MCS will allow you to run higher spring rates and still provide a compliant ride thanks to their unique blow-off valve technology. This is their secret sauce IMO.

Ohlins DFV technology gives the same characteristics on rebound as it does on compression. This is accomplished by giving the damper fluid a consistent path of flow in both directions at high or low piston speeds. The result is better ride comfort that matches OEM strut performance, but in an adjustable coil-over design.

The Koni dampers is a basic monotube design that has been around for years. It's a proven design, but the technology lags behind companies like MCS and Ohlins. I think it is a compromised design that doesn't stand out above the rest pack on either street or track.

Bottom line, both MCS and Ohlins R&T will be a better damper with improved ride qualities over a TCK Koni setup, however the cost for these dampers is higher. MCS will give you the highest degree of flexibility when it comes to spring rates as their valving can usually accommodate a range of spring rates before needing to change out the valving. Ohlins is more of a "set it and forget it" design, where OEM ride comfort with height adjustability is prioritized.

From a dual-purpose car perspective (i.e. street car / track car) the MSC is the better damper IMO. Ohlins makes a dedicated track setup, but the included Swift spring have very high rates that are too high for comfortable street driving. I guess that's why they label it "dedicated track".

Ohlins R&T = High quality OEM comfort in a coil-over design.
MCS = Greater spring rate flexibility, better suited for dual-purpose cars.
TCK Koni = Proven "budget" option that has been around forever.

I’ve heard conflicting reviews about MCS and Ohlins riding better than TCK. The issue with any monotube damper is that they have very high friction from the stout seals which results in a high force to get the seals to move initially. This causes a pretty stiff feeling ride around town. Now, can they handle a curb blowoff event better? Likely.

take a look around on here - there are multiple people that have owned all of these. From a ride quality perspective TCK is pretty hard to beat.

[S54330Ci]

. . . the issue with any monotube damper is that they have very high friction from the stout seals which results in a high force to get the seals to move initially. This causes a pretty stiff feeling ride around town.

So by this argument the TCK would have soft seals to make the ride more compliant. That's not how it works.

With any adjustable damper, people often equate higher rebound settings to better handling. They crank up the rebound not realizing they have now put the damper's reaction against the spring's tension outside the performance envelope of the spring. Once compressed, the spring wants to return to a neutral state at a certain rate of speed, but the high rebound setting on the damper prevents that from happening, hence a stiff ride.

DA dampers make this situation even worse as now you can adjust both rebound and compression, which, if adjusted incorrectly, can really make the ride quality suffer.

Remember, a damper is intended to control the motion of the spring, not necessarily to make the car lean less in the corners, that's what sway bars and stiffer springs are for.

In most cases a rough ride is usually caused by mis-matched springs and dampers.
1) Spring rates too high or too low relative to damper valving.
2) Damper stroke too long for spring length (i.e. lowering spring) resulting in the damper bottoming out internally.

[cobra]

...
MCS dampers have a unique blow-off valve that manage high speed compression hits where shaft speed velocities can create significant increases in compression damping forces. These blow off values are entirely unique to MCS and minimize a compression strike minimizing a large loss of grip in street applications and providing comfortable road manners. MCS will allow you to run higher spring rates and still provide a compliant ride thanks to their unique blow-off valve technology. This is their secret sauce IMO.
...
The Koni dampers is a basic monotube design that has been around for years. It's a proven design, but the technology lags behind companies like MCS and Ohlins. I think it is a compromised design that doesn't stand out above the rest pack on either street or track.
...

I'm not sure I buy the blowoff idea. Maybe this concept has applications on a controlled race track where you know that your maximum input is going to be the height of a curb in a corner and you don't want to upset the chassis. However, with the wide range of things you might encounter on the street, a blowoff feature might allow the wheel/chassis to overshoot more than you want and go crashing into the bump stop.

I think it's important to define what harshness is because there are different things that cause it, and most people use the term interchangeably. From my experience, harshness from too much rebound or not enough stroke is much worse and more frequently encountered than from having too much high speed compression damping. The only exception is an orifice- style damper that generates damping exponentially, but no one here is running those.

Konis are twin tubes but I think maybe that was a typo.

I’ve heard conflicting reviews about MCS and Ohlins riding better than TCK. The issue with any monotube damper is that they have very high friction from the stout seals which results in a high force to get the seals to move initially. This causes a pretty stiff feeling ride around town. Now, can they handle a curb blowoff event better? Likely.

take a look around on here - there are multiple people that have owned all of these. From a ride quality perspective TCK is pretty hard to beat.

There is a correlation between gas force and friction, but it's not as significant as you might think. The problem arises when people start using gas force as a tuning parameter and putting 300-400 psi in there, where it can become more significant. A monotube with base valve could theoretically be run even below pressures you see in a Koni.

The issue with information on this forum is that we know our vehicle parameters and spring rates, but are guessing when it comes to damper tunes because nothing is published. For example the MCS might be harsh because of the tune and nothing inherently wrong with the fact it's a monotube.

So by this argument the TCK would have soft seals to make the ride more compliant. That's not how it works.

With any adjustable damper, people often equate higher rebound settings to better handling. They crank up the rebound not realizing they have now put the damper's reaction against the spring's tension outside the performance envelope of the spring. Once compressed, the spring wants to return to a neutral state at a certain rate of speed, but the high rebound setting on the damper prevents that from happening, hence a stiff ride.

DA dampers make this situation even worse as now you can adjust both rebound and compression, which, if adjusted incorrectly, can really make the ride quality suffer.

Remember, a damper is intended to control the motion of the spring, not necessarily to make the car lean less in the corners, that's what sway bars and stiffer springs are for.

In most cases a rough ride is usually caused by mis-matched springs and dampers.
1) Spring rates too high or too low relative to damper valving.
2) Damper stroke too long for spring length (i.e. lowering spring) resulting in the damper bottoming out internally.

100000% this.


To answer the question about choosing shocks, seriously check out the KW V3's. No you can't easily work on them because of parts availability, and they're not bougie like MCS, but they are set up well the way they come. The bodies are short to prevent bottoming out early if you decide to lower the car. The damper curves are good. It's a good value that includes shocks, bumpers, springs, and rear ride height adjusters. The spring rates are really reasonable for a sporty street setup. And they won't rust!

Typically Ohlins makes a great product that is easily serviceable and well set up. But after seeing the ride height complaints here and never having tested them in person I can't say yes or no without it just being a guess.

[tnord]

hey, if the V3 will offer better ride quality than the TCK DA, you don't have to fuck with it like the ohlins, and they cost 40% less than the 1WNR but offer on-par performance I'm all for it.

and yes, the car will definitely be lower than stock but nothing silly.

[K-Dawg]

as we approach holiday sales, I'm trying to prepare myself for my annual irrational purchase. the most rational of all the irrational possibilities for this year is probably refreshing my currently corroding suspension. there's a million suspension threads, and I've read most at one time or another, but I'll bump this one back up because there's much discussion of the Ohlins RTR setup and MCS 1WNR.

I'm trying to narrow down to what basically amounts to a very competent street setup. Yes, I know the default recommendation is the TCK SA or DA depending on budget. But in my mind I can't help but think a "better" damper might provide more comfort and control than the TCK options given appropriate spring rates. I'm not trying to throw a track setup at a street car and then complain about harshness. Recognizing my lack of intimate knowledge, am I off base in thinking a "higher end" damper will produce a better result for the street if the correct spring rates are used? Is the MCS 1WNR actually any "better" than the TCK Koni, Ohlins DFV, etc?

Stock everything and Bilstein B6 (with or without Fat Cat mods) might be worth considering.

[thegenius46m]

Love my fat cats! Coming from mcs, the fat cats made me enjoy spirited driving again on the street without compromises. Even around town it's very composed and not obnoxious. Can't say that about the old setup with the same springs


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[tnord]

this is what makes damper selection process confusing. multiple people attest to the "sublime" ride quality of their MCS with reasonable spring rates, but another indicates they leave something to be desired.

I found a reasonable deal on KWV3, which while it may not be the best, it's hard to know what "the best" is and would be an improvement over my worn out Koni yellows. Without having a lot of confidence in selecting the "best" damper, it's tough to spend that much on a setup.

I did find this from a guy with an NSX that did 100k on his V3 and took them to a shock dyno to compare new vs old. While maybe not "the best" option out there it also seems like they're not a horrible choice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyvjeOaBxlQ

[Gt4]

this is what makes damper selection process confusing. multiple people attest to the "sublime" ride quality of their MCS with reasonable spring rates, but another indicates they leave something to be desired.

I found a reasonable deal on KWV3, which while it may not be the best, it's hard to know what "the best" is and would be an improvement over my worn out Koni yellows. Without having a lot of confidence in selecting the "best" damper, it's tough to spend that much on a setup.

I did find this from a guy with an NSX that did 100k on his V3 and took them to a shock dyno to compare new vs old. While maybe not "the best" option out there it also seems like they're not a horrible choice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyvjeOaBxlQ

From what I see, KW offer a really good quality ride but saw a lot of them that leaks or crack welds

[Slideways]

this is what makes damper selection process confusing. multiple people attest to the "sublime" ride quality of their MCS with reasonable spring rates, but another indicates they leave something to be desired.

I found a reasonable deal on KWV3, which while it may not be the best, it's hard to know what "the best" is and would be an improvement over my worn out Koni yellows. Without having a lot of confidence in selecting the "best" damper, it's tough to spend that much on a setup.

I did find this from a guy with an NSX that did 100k on his V3 and took them to a shock dyno to compare new vs old. While maybe not "the best" option out there it also seems like they're not a horrible choice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyvjeOaBxlQ

How are the roads in KC?

[tnord]

I would say average. Not maintained as well as they should be, but not as bad as some places.

[T-Rex]

Too late. The Ohlins are arriving on Friday. 🤙🤙
Also, idk what kind of math you did, but the price difference between a complete PSS10 kit with camber plates, RSMs, and linear springs is $46 less than what I paid for my complete Ohlins kit. The savings only covers one-sixth of the cost of a corner balance and alignment. But I appreciate you letting me know I wasted money on my Ohlins lol.

How are you liking the Ohlins 6 months on?

[SQ13]

How are you liking the Ohlins 6 months on?

I love it. I still haven’t gotten the car on a track, but it feels great on twisty roads. The car feels balanced with the 336/630 lb/in springs and front Hotchkis sway bar. The only issue I currently have is a front end clunk at parking lot speeds, which I suspect is just the TMS monoball FCABs. Also something good to know is that the orange anodized Vorshlag camber plates that 3DM uses are non-M3 plates, meaning that your camber range will be about -2.5° to -4.0°. If I had known that, I would’ve just gone with the red M3 Vorshlag camber plates.

The car feels a bit stiffer (not in a bad way IMO) than my blue M3 with PSS10s and stock seats. And maybe slightly stiffer than my 981 Cayman with the X73 sport suspension.

I would still recommend Ohlins R&T to anyone who can afford them. Thru 3DM it’s a great value since you can get custom spring rates like I did, and they arrived preassembled/ready to install.

[lsbe46lg]

No talk of JRZ or AST vs the MCS options? Or are those just in a different league?

[Tbonem3]

Jrz is equivalent. Ast just doesn't seem on par to me.

[lsbe46lg]

AST not up to par as far as value for money or just overall?