E46 M3 S85 V10 Swap - What does it really take?

[Altaran]

I thought ECU Master black was the go to?

For V Engines it's EMU Pro. The Black does currently not support closed loop lambda control for two O2 sensors, the Pro does. Not so bad for inline engines, but for V I'd want that.

But it's not completely plug and play, the EMU does not use ionic control, so on the s85 you delete the factory ionic ecus on the cylinder head. There's adapters to add conventional knock sensors to these engines, which is also a good idea. Modern ECUs are much better at analyzing data from knock sensors than they were 20+ years ago when s86/65 were developed.

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[bmw m3 s50]

I am actually surprised that there are no off-the-shelf clear cut s65 swaps for the e46 m3 especially since it would give that high revving NA engine that everyone is going for these days. I would think that would be a little easier of a swap allowing for more space.

[bigjae46]

I don't know if you can call a car with a standalone ECU OEM+.

[Altaran]

I don't know if you can call a car with a standalone ECU OEM+.

I wouldn't call any engine swapped car OEM+...

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[George Hill]

The reality is V engines don't fit the E46 chassis well. Developing the mechanical side of this swap is extremely time consuming and there is almost a 100% guarantee you will not regain your investment if doing it as a business. On top of that the costs go waaaay up when you try to do everything "perfect" but most swaps have taken a short cut that others may not want to take which then decreases your buyers pool.

From working on my own S65 swap so far I can say that the hardest part is the headers while keeping A/C and not cutting the frame rails.

Vorshlag is swapping an S65 into their E46 race car and I imagine they will offer a swap kit when done.

And in my experience the mechanical mounting of the engine/trans is the "easy" part. Lots of people get it 90%, its that last 10% of the work that is hard to get past the goal post.

In regards to the hood, the S65 is very tall. There is a fine line between ground clearance and hood clearance you either put a taller bulge on the hood or loose ground clearance so sucking the plenum as tight to the hood skin is the best happy medium and even then IIRC the sump won't clear a stock reinforcement plate.

The S85 swapped touring I did I would say is 95% (+/-) there and I bet to complete it how I would want to there's another couple hundred hours in development.

[bigjae46]

The reality is V engines don't fit the E46 chassis well. Developing the mechanical side of this swap is extremely time consuming and there is almost a 100% guarantee you will not regain your investment if doing it as a business. On top of that the costs go waaaay up when you try to do everything "perfect" but most swaps have taken a short cut that others may not want to take which then decreases your buyers pool.

From working on my own S65 swap so far I can say that the hardest part is the headers while keeping A/C and not cutting the frame rails.

Vorshlag is swapping an S65 into their E46 race car and I imagine they will offer a swap kit when done.

And in my experience the mechanical mounting of the engine/trans is the "easy" part. Lots of people get it 90%, its that last 10% of the work that is hard to get past the goal post.

In regards to the hood, the S65 is very tall. There is a fine line between ground clearance and hood clearance you either put a taller bulge on the hood or loose ground clearance so sucking the plenum as tight to the hood skin is the best happy medium and even then IIRC the sump won't clear a stock reinforcement plate.

The S85 swapped touring I did I would say is 95% (+/-) there and I bet to complete it how I would want to there's another couple hundred hours in development.

How much of a difference would a dry sump make? I remember Driftwork's project...looked like the dry sump increases the chances of the OE steering rack clearing the dry sump pan for LHD. RHD made their life hell since that is the side the pump was on.

I think my case would be as easy as it could get. The wiring doesn't have much to integrate into and I'd use an AIM dash. Not sure what to do about the fuel pump stuff you mentioned.

My issue is weight. The last thing I need or want is more weight on the front of the car after spending all of this time and money trying to remove weight. Would help if I could use the ZF320 instead of a DCT or 6MT.

[George Hill]

How much of a difference would a dry sump make?

I don't care about racecars, lol so I have no idea, but you aren't running A/C with a dry sump so end story for me haha.

If you seriously would want that setup, reach out to Vorshlag I bet they'll duplicate there's if a market exists. IMO I think that how they are doing it is not going to meet the needs of a street car, but a racecar will likely be fine.

My issue is weight.

Even if it was heavier, which I'm not sold it will be much (definitely the trans, but not the engine) an extra 75+ whp isn't gonna care about 100lbs lol

[Altaran]

How much of a difference would a dry sump make? I remember Driftwork's project...looked like the dry sump increases the chances of the OE steering rack clearing the dry sump pan for LHD. RHD made their life hell since that is the side the pump was on.

I think my case would be as easy as it could get. The wiring doesn't have much to integrate into and I'd use an AIM dash. Not sure what to do about the fuel pump stuff you mentioned.

My issue is weight. The last thing I need or want is more weight on the front of the car after spending all of this time and money trying to remove weight. Would help if I could use the ZF320 instead of a DCT or 6MT.

A dry sump pan solves a bit of issues, since it's flat, so you can vary your engine placement, you can also lower it as long you don't use a dct, since that transmission then has a ground clearance issue.
Weight is not going to be an issue. Since the V8 has 4 cyl in a row vs 6 your center of weight will shift backwards, so your car will not feel nose heavy.
If your considering V10 it may increase the tip weight, but not to the point of making it undrivable.

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[ZiMMie]

I really like the V10 and S65, but an LS swap is way better in an E46 than any BMW V-motor when it comes to fitment, weight balance, and sheer power.

[George Hill]

...but an LS swap is way better...

The heart wants what the heart wants

[BL92]

BMW-M made the S62 work?

[bigjae46]

A dry sump pan solves a bit of issues, since it's flat, so you can vary your engine placement, you can also lower it as long you don't use a dct, since that transmission then has a ground clearance issue.
Weight is not going to be an issue. Since the V8 has 4 cyl in a row vs 6 your center of weight will shift backwards, so your car will not feel nose heavy.
If your considering V10 it may increase the tip weight, but not to the point of making it undrivable.

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My car is really light (2517lbs w/ no fuel) so it is very sensitive to even small changes in weight. A full tank of fuel vs a 1/2 tank feels slightly different. I've had to do a lot to get the weight distribution to 51.2/48.8. Assuming a V10 adds 50lbs over the nose, the result is a 52/48 split.

A .8% change is very noticeable in a lighter car.

I'm just dreaming. If I were to swap the engine it would be a B48TU3 with forged internals and then turn up the boost.

[Slideways]

BMW-M made the S62 work?

Hartge did as well. Appears to operate like a factory car.

[bigjae46]

BMW-M made the S62 work?

Yeah but I'm sure they have a lot better tools, data
and info to integrate everything.

[0-60motorsports]

BMW-M made the S62 work?

Yes and with SMG! That would be my dream swap or S65 DCT.