E46 vs E90, a decision to replace my ZHP

[Sharocks]

You prefer the 420G to the E90's ZF? Have you also driven a non-m ZF6? Since that's the only comparison i have to go off of. I'm going to try to find a dealer listing for one to try and drive it, but honestly trying to find a good example between the produced 15k E46 manual coupes vs 3k E90 manuals or even adding the 10k SMG coupes for a couple grand less and just converting it... Much easier just glancing around the internet, and they're 10k cheaper on average.

Yes I prefer the 420G over the ZF in the E9X chassis.

The manual in the E9X M3's was an afterthought since emissions and fuel economy were major priorities, DCT is much better suited for the engine and car but LOL 2 pedals.

I've driven a few ZHP's and the 420 is much more temperamental. I would recommend an AS SSK with refreshed trans mounts immediately.

The SMG swap option is a good one if you're looking for rarer color combos. It opens up possibilities and typically the SMG gearboxes aren't as messed up as the manuals after 20 years.

If you decide on a X5D, I would get an E46 M3. If you don't, then consider an E90 M3.

[clayton8or]

I’ll also add that if I were in your shoes and was after a four door BMW M car, then it would be an F80 M3.

The S65 is more visceral than the S55, but in every other department the F80 is a better car imo. It’s a very palatable one car solution which would also mean that you wouldn’t need the X5 either.

But ultimately this is something for you to figure out.

Good luck and keep us posted on your decision.

This is something i had briefly considered, but not only are F80s considerably more expensive, they're also turbocharged, and do not sound great, so i have no interest in that. I would probably be stupid enough to try to NA-ify an S55 if i got one.

Edit to say I have driven a well modified F82 before, It was cool, DCT was nice, chassis was responsive, but it kinda felt like nothing tbh. You point wheel and car go

[clayton8or]

I have an F30 340 as my daily, and part of me wants an F80 as a daily instead so I get it.

If you didn't already have the X5 I'd tell you to give serious consideration to an e90 with the N52. I had one prior to my F30 and it was great. I'd still have it if it didn't get stuck in a serious hail storm. I don't know how much this translates to the M version, but I always felt like on my e90 you were driving the front of the car as opposed to the E46 you were driving the rear of the car. Could have been due to setup differences between the two however (e90 was on 255 square, my m3 is on 245/275).

The ZF 6 speed in that car was definitely better, and the N52 has a better top end than a M54. It looks like your ZHP was pretty well set up, but I still think the e90 N52 would be a nice little step up in performance, but maybe not in styling.

I admit I've never driven an e90m, but to me it comes down to the question of if you want the v8 and are willing to deal with the additional cost of living with the v8, or if you want the i6 because that's what BMW does, and the S54 is maybe the best they've ever produced.

I do not own an X5, just trying to find one now as i sell my X3. The purpose of it is to absorb all comfort, fuel efficiency, space, and towing requirements from the "fun car".
I've driven a well set up E90 N52 with a different manifold and TB delete, i did not like it. My X3 also has an N52, and i do not like it. Terrible response. The TB delete car (valvetronic only) even has a lag when you CLOSE the throttle causing a very concerning continuation of power when letting off.

I did not quite mention, but throttle response and sound is basically at the top of the list for cars. This is one of the few reasons an s2000 is barely off this 2 long list. While it sounds good, its just not s54/s65 good.

[clayton8or]

I think, if done well enough, that could pay for itself down the line as a 4 door e46 m3 is probably pretty sought after on the marketplace.

Or just buy an E46 M3. I think you'll miss you ZHP a lot if you get an e90M.

Also, aren't equivalent E90Ms significantly more expensive than e46 m3?

clayton8or

Thank you for the kind words. As far as a side by side comparison, they're really just ships that pass in the night; that is, they're never together and with how busy life is for me nowadays, I don't see myslef doing something with both of them at the same time or whatever, just being honest. My IG content creating days are dwindling.

To respond to George simultaneously, I've considered S54 swapping... like for the last 6 years. However, my main problem is the fact that in the E46 chassis, I prefer the coupe, and wide fenders. I could put wide fenders on my car, but not 2 doors. Also, I would have to swap the whole interior (its grey and im tired of it), basically the entire drivetrain, and all the suspension... it would basically be a new car, which is totally unnecessary because the car is fine how it is, its a good ZHP, its not a good M3.

Also yes, Im not sure if i clarified but i tried to say E90M's are way harder to find and more expensive than E46's, giving me a head start. I've been saving for 2 years and still not even close. I have a pretty terribly paying job and had a lot of stuff come up recently that ate up some savings, but if i sold my car i could do it.

[tnord]

I do not own an X5, just trying to find one now as i sell my X3. The purpose of it is to absorb all comfort, fuel efficiency, space, and towing requirements from the "fun car".
I've driven a well set up E90 N52 with a different manifold and TB delete, i did not like it. My X3 also has an N52, and i do not like it. Terrible response. The TB delete car (valvetronic only) even has a lag when you CLOSE the throttle causing a very concerning continuation of power when letting off.

I did not quite mention, but throttle response and sound is basically at the top of the list for cars. This is one of the few reasons an s2000 is barely off this 2 long list. While it sounds good, its just not s54/s65 good.

I don't remember thinking that, but it certainly could be down to calibration. My N52 was a 2006, so I already had the good manifold and didn't need to do the swap and reflash. It wouldn't surprise me if the response on the X3 is intentionally deadened as well. Mine also had the euro intake, silicone elbow to delete the resonator, and an M Performance Parts exhaust, though I doubt that made much difference in throttle response but it sure sounded good!

But if you don't like it, you don't like it.

[Obioban]

I do not own an X5, just trying to find one now as i sell my X3. The purpose of it is to absorb all comfort, fuel efficiency, space, and towing requirements from the "fun car".
I've driven a well set up E90 N52 with a different manifold and TB delete, i did not like it. My X3 also has an N52, and i do not like it. Terrible response. The TB delete car (valvetronic only) even has a lag when you CLOSE the throttle causing a very concerning continuation of power when letting off.

I did not quite mention, but throttle response and sound is basically at the top of the list for cars. This is one of the few reasons an s2000 is barely off this 2 long list. While it sounds good, its just not s54/s65 good.

Given all this description, 100% e46.

Still, drive both, if you haven't.

[terra]

You could probably improve that throttle responsiveness with messing with the DME. Hacking sport mode onto my ZHP did wonders, and a similar hack is feasible on those N52 DMEs (which should be able to respond faster than an M54 if the software lets it).

Though you're pretty much never going to beat an S54 or S65 in terms of throttle response.

[tnord]

Given all this description, 100% e46.

Still, drive both, if you haven't.

I had the same thought, but since I hadn’t driven an e90m3 didn’t want to throw it out there.

[Nate047]

I've been saving for 2 years and still not even close. I have a pretty terribly paying job and had a lot of stuff come up recently that ate up some savings, but if i sold my car i could do it.

TBH man, just be aware that you're entering a world of pain here. Whatever you think your budget is, add another, like... 40%

[terra]

I've been saving for 2 years and still not even close. I have a pretty terribly paying job and had a lot of stuff come up recently that ate up some savings, but if i sold my car i could do it.

That makes me feel maybe you should give the N52 another chance. M3s tend not to respect budgets. And everything slowly going NLA is also an issue. P

Perhaps a 128i with the 3-stage and a tune? Obioban speaks pretty highly of those.

[Obioban]

That makes me feel maybe you should give the N52 another chance. M3s tend not to respect budgets. And everything slowly going NLA is also an issue. P

Perhaps a 128i with the 3-stage and a tune? Obioban speaks pretty highly of those.

I love our 128i. But, I I love it in a "slow car fast" kind of way, which doesn't really seem to be what he's going for.

I don't think I'd be happy with it as my only/dedicated sporty car.

... I do think the N52 is pretty great, with 3 stage disa and a tune. Not S54 great, but easily the #2 best i6 BMW has made.

[EthanolTurbo]

TBH man, just be aware that you're entering a world of pain here. Whatever you think your budget is, add another, like... 40%

Same with the X5D. They're mostly all old and higher mileage now, and the removal of the emissions system is just part of the maintenance. You have to do a lot of work while you're in there. Easily a $3500-5000+ job at a shop.

[bigjae46]

I've owned an E46 since 2003 (330Ci, M3) and an E90 M3 since 2011. As Obioban said, the E9X is a decided split from some BMW norms in not so obvious ways. The E9X M3 is the first BMW I would consider slightly overpowered and has a far more modern suspension whereas the E46 is the last run of the same wishbone front control arm and rear trailing arm design.

The complaints about the weight make no sense. I've driven both and it is very difficult to sense the weight difference until the tire and brake bill comes due. That's the only time I've really noticed anything. The E46 M3 has a more nimble front end but E9X M3 is a different kind of nimble. You drive the car with your right foot on the gas and it is WAY more fun! I could get the point that the E9X M3 feels heavier if it is never overdriven.

The E46 will cost a lot more on maintenance and upkeep BUT is much easier to work on. The E9X M3 has far fewer issues especially with the non-manual transmission. The E9X M3 bugaboos - rod bearings, VANOS caps, throttle actuators, and the F*%!CKING CUPHOLDERS!!! The only bushings/mounts I've had to replace are the engine mounts. Suspension components are far more durable.

The E46 has a nicer interior that falls apart a lot faster. Both have leather seats that is an ice rink for your ass...just slide everywhere! The E9X has more of a sterile feel.

Daily driving it is hard to beat an E90 M3 DCT. I've been daily driving mine for 15 years. There is a cost. It feels most special when pushing the car.

It is hard to beat the feel of just sitting in an E46. The S54 with a CSL intake is hard to beat for normal driving.

I think it is easier for most to fall in love with the E46 M3. Sometimes - the issues like the VANOS - and the effort required to solve them is what builds the relationship.

[discoelk]

From a driving perspective, I wouldn't put the M3/S54 on a pedestal. A 330i with a 6 speed and M3 rear diff is really good. The entire thing can be done for only $1k or so on top of a subframe job. The front end is lighter on a M54 car as well so they drive "better" IMO. If you want an S54 and the M3 look, that's a different thing tho.

Just my 2c.

[clayton8or]

TBH man, just be aware that you're entering a world of pain here. Whatever you think your budget is, add another, like... 40%

What? I don't understand what you mean, What would make even a ton of deferred maintenance, a vincebar, VANOS, and rod bearings somehow like 8-10k? It should be more like 2-3 for all those parts... And a nicer car will have less deferred maintenance. Or i could get one for cheap and just rebuild it, its not a big deal to me, i've ripped my engine out twice now.