Street freindly or best bump steer correction toe rod ends?

[pawa_k2001]

I messaged them via FB this morning.

Good morning. I am looking at your E46 M3 bumpsteer and roll center correction kit. Is it possible to use this kit but retain the stock steering ratio? Is it possible to build a kit that leaves the stock steering ratio?

Hello, Thanks for your interest in our products! Unfortunately it is not possible as the adapter is part of the assembly and it is needed to obtain required stiffness. Quicker ratio does not make steering noticeably harder, most of the drivers say it is a very desirable ratio for track driving and even works on street cars. Best regards, Mikko /MRT

I would think that its possible to use a heim joint tie rod end and produce a stud that goes through both the spindle and heim joint in stock location, this would keep the tie rod in the stock location. I will try ask them again.

[STAATS]

Just a follow-on comment on the new spindle instead of flooding your other post but... I think this is a bit of a pipe dream and very cost prohibitive... it would solve the problem at a pricepoint that only serious track guys would be interested in and there is already a solution in that space by using aftermarket tubular LCAs and toe-rods which are far easier to install then a full spindle install.

I think MRT are on the right track in terms of an easy an cost effective solution by just trying to space the LCA and the toe-rod down... but the unsealed heim joint for the LCA and the new toe-rod pickup making faster steering are downsides for us track/street guys... probs fine for track only and probs optimal for drifting purposes...

One potential could be thread/boss/extenders for the LCA and toe-rod pickup... just a machined boss that have flats for a spanner so you could screw the LCA and Toe-rod into it and then thread off the top of the boss. then just drill out the thread on the spindle and push these through and do them up with a nut... pushes the LCA and the toe-rod down by the height of the threaded boss and keeps their relative position so doesnt impact steering ratio... A solution somewhere in between that and the MRT solution is probably something we could convince Cayn over at CMP Automotive to look in to as he is always looking for market gaps that he can develop solutions for... i think this is a space where there are definately solutions for track/drift only setups but not an effective street friendly solution in sight...

[pawa_k2001]

Thanks for the idea. I will reach out to Cayn also. I like MRT idea of the aluminum spacer, it seems safer for the street than an extended stud like other bumpsteer/roll center correction kits.

I can understand that an aluminum spindle will be cost prohibitive, the only way I can spend around $2k on a pair of spindles is if it corrects the geometry and also saves significant weight.

Currently a VAC bumpsteer kit is $270 and VAC control arms are $1200 so $1500 to correct both but still has the problem of exposed heim joints. SLR is less expensive at $1250 but yet again has exposed heim joints. MRT is only $400 but quickens the steering rack by 30% which doesn't work for me, I need the steering ratio to stay stock so it can work with MK60 ABS.

[STAATS]

Thanks for the idea. I will reach out to Cayn also. I like MRT idea of the aluminum spacer, it seems safer for the street than an extended stud like other bumpsteer/roll center correction kits.

I can understand that an aluminum spindle will be cost prohibitive, the only way I can spend around $2k on a pair of spindles is if it corrects the geometry and also saves significant weight.

Currently a VAC bumpsteer kit is $270 and VAC control arms are $1200 so $1500 to correct both but still has the problem of exposed heim joints. SLR is less expensive at $1250 but yet again has exposed heim joints. MRT is only $400 but quickens the steering rack by 30% which doesn't work for me, I need the steering ratio to stay stock so it can work with MK60 ABS.

Yer there should definately be a way to take the MRT idea and make it work with sealed heim joints and maintain the stock pickup locations... A kinda hybrid extended stud with reinforcement... 10yrs ago I would have cracked a few beers, opened SolidWorks and had something sorted by morning.... but my career has taken me away from that extremely useful FSAE skillset...

If I remember I will wind up Cayn tomorrow... last I spoke to him he was still working on some Aero products... He uses his own car as a test bed and i feel like this is a project that would benefit his car so he may get on board with... he already helped with some roll centre correction on the rear designed into his solid subframe bushes so fixing the front seems like a logical next step for him... although i think he ius building his car for drift so might just be happy with the faster steering of the MRT solution without any effort haha

[BBRTuning]

Thanks for the idea. I will reach out to Cayn also. I like MRT idea of the aluminum spacer, it seems safer for the street than an extended stud like other bumpsteer/roll center correction kits.

I can understand that an aluminum spindle will be cost prohibitive, the only way I can spend around $2k on a pair of spindles is if it corrects the geometry and also saves significant weight.

Currently a VAC bumpsteer kit is $270 and VAC control arms are $1200 so $1500 to correct both but still has the problem of exposed heim joints. SLR is less expensive at $1250 but yet again has exposed heim joints. MRT is only $400 but quickens the steering rack by 30% which doesn't work for me, I need the steering ratio to stay stock so it can work with MK60 ABS.

Is it not possible to code a custom value for steering ratio on the Mk60? It would be a shame to miss out on quickening the E46 M3's lethargic steering just because of DSC compatibility. It wouldn't affect ABS performance, only DSC when DSC is active.

Either way, I would purchase a set of properly engineered drop spindles if they're in the ~$2k range. Correcting roll centre on these cars would be a huge benefit - allows for lower spring rate and less static camber for the same front geometry control. In the meantime I might go with the MRT setup. I already have a Z3 rack on top of it, so the steering should be quite fun. Mk20 ABS though so my DSC is already hopeless as it is.

[AussieE46M3]

Hey guys,

Pawa messaged me enquiring whether this is something I would be interested in looking into and funny enough, It's something I have in the works now.

The design in short is a bit of a hybrid and will be designed to suit E30/E36/E46 and provide adjustable castor trail, angle, ackerman, bump steer, roll centre etc.

To give you an idea of what to expect, the design itself will be utilising an E36 shock base using the 3 bolts rather than a pinch bolt as well as an E92M3/E60M5 bolt on wheel bearing/hub and hopefully suit stock arms and not require sphericals or rod ends. I also intend to develop extended control arms and rod end tie rods for drift application but, do want to make it compatible with stock components.

It was originally intended for the drift guys however, the plan is to allow a range of tie rod pickups for stock angle/ackerman to high angle no ackerman. With a few caster trail options it should also be a good method for the E30 guys to perform a 5-lug conversion.

The plan was to also make it a direct fir for M3 & M4 brakes for those wanting to run them.

It's something I only started working on a couple weeks ago and am in the process of converting the stock components geometry into Solidworks before analysing bump steer, roll centre etc and making the appropriate adjustments before designing a new model.

I'm expecting this to take a few months before I have w functioning prototype.

[STAATS]

Hey guys,

Pawa messaged me enquiring whether this is something I would be interested in looking into and funny enough, It's something I have in the works now.

The design in short is a bit of a hybrid and will be designed to suit E30/E36/E46 and provide adjustable castor trail, angle, ackerman, bump steer, roll centre etc.

To give you an idea of what to expect, the design itself will be utilising an E36 shock base using the 3 bolts rather than a pinch bolt as well as an E92M3/E60M5 bolt on wheel bearing/hub and hopefully suit stock arms and not require sphericals or rod ends. I also intend to develop extended control arms and rod end tie rods for drift application but, do want to make it compatible with stock components.

It was originally intended for the drift guys however, the plan is to allow a range of tie rod pickups for stock angle/ackerman to high angle no ackerman. With a few caster trail options it should also be a good method for the E30 guys to perform a 5-lug conversion.

The plan was to also make it a direct fir for M3 & M4 brakes for those wanting to run them.

It's something I only started working on a couple weeks ago and am in the process of converting the stock components geometry into Solidworks before analysing bump steer, roll centre etc and making the appropriate adjustments before designing a new model.

I'm expecting this to take a few months before I have w functioning prototype.

So you are looking at a custom spindle setup not an adapter for the current spindles? I mean this and/or tubular track LCAs is the premium option in terms of solving the issuing and giving adjustability etc.

I am just in the market for a simple adapter to correct the geometry due to my 1" lowering... I'd be all over MRTs option like a rash if their bearing was sealed and the steering didn't get tuned to go-kart spec haha so i was hoping for a more steer friendly version of that to correct the front as best as possible like your solid subframe bushes do for the rear

[Obioban]

Hey guys,

Pawa messaged me enquiring whether this is something I would be interested in looking into and funny enough, It's something I have in the works now.

The design in short is a bit of a hybrid and will be designed to suit E30/E36/E46 and provide adjustable castor trail, angle, ackerman, bump steer, roll centre etc.

To give you an idea of what to expect, the design itself will be utilising an E36 shock base using the 3 bolts rather than a pinch bolt as well as an E92M3/E60M5 bolt on wheel bearing/hub and hopefully suit stock arms and not require sphericals or rod ends. I also intend to develop extended control arms and rod end tie rods for drift application but, do want to make it compatible with stock components.

It was originally intended for the drift guys however, the plan is to allow a range of tie rod pickups for stock angle/ackerman to high angle no ackerman. With a few caster trail options it should also be a good method for the E30 guys to perform a 5-lug conversion.

The plan was to also make it a direct fir for M3 & M4 brakes for those wanting to run them.

It's something I only started working on a couple weeks ago and am in the process of converting the stock components geometry into Solidworks before analysing bump steer, roll centre etc and making the appropriate adjustments before designing a new model.

I'm expecting this to take a few months before I have w functioning prototype.

Since I assume you’ll be CNCing them per order, you could set ride height and brakes as variable in your CAD model. People could spec what ride height and brakes they wanted them designed for when ordering, get a part optimized for that.

[pawa_k2001]

I love the idea Cayn.

Overall a modular idea is perfect since its possible to produce a product that will fit multiple chassis. The problem for me is the fact that the spindle will only work with a E36 strut design, that will add a major expense since I would need to source a new suspension when mine was just rebuilt a year ago.

Like STAATS suggested, would it be possible to rework the MRT idea? It sounds overly simplistic but there would be a 30-35mm aluminum spacer that would correct both roll center and bump steer. An extended ball joint would need to be created for the control arm but a heim joint can be used for the tie rod end, boots like "Seals-it" can be used to protect this heim joint.

(forgive me for the paint skills) Move the steering tie rod to its OEM position. If necessary make the tie rod end a heim joint that has a boot.

[STAATS]

I mean Cayn's spindle idea still has merit and still has a market BUT what you have sketched in paint is basically what we need as a street solution and no one has really dont it yet. M3Forum and M3Cutters are full of people like us that have been looking at stuff like the MRT kit to correct roll centre and always trip over the fact they are more race only parts. A street oriented solution like pawa and I areblooking for would grab market share pretty easy as there is no competitor at the moment. MRTS kit and Tubular arm kits and custom spindles still have a place in the market for more track only or strict drift builds but no solution effectively helps street guys at the moment. I think a custom spindle is well above what some guy who just put coilovers on his car wants to look into investing in.

[pawa_k2001]

Got a reply from MRT, they have some interest in redesigning their kit but currently they are busy with other projects. If we knew there are a good enough market for these kits, I think companies would produce it but it seems like everyone is producing similar kits for race and drift cars.

The company that showed interest is producing a E46 M3 specific aluminum spindle is Bimmerworld but their #1 question is if it will make business sense. While I rather have a custom aluminum spindle, I understand that a MRT style kit would be more cost effect so it would sell better.

[STAATS]

Got a reply from MRT, they have some interest in redesigning their kit but currently they are busy with other projects. If we knew there are a good enough market for these kits, I think companies would produce it but it seems like everyone is producing similar kits for race and drift cars.

The company that showed interest is producing a E46 M3 specific aluminum spindle is Bimmerworld but their #1 question is if it will make business sense. While I rather have a custom aluminum spindle, I understand that a MRT style kit would be more cost effect so it would sell better.

Yer I just think custom spindle is too race car... like a well done revision of MRTs design to have sealed joints and no change to steering would achieve 98% the same for significantly less cost and could be setup to be swapped back to stock pretty easily if you went back to stock struts... this is a real consideration for some people who part out their cars and go back to stock before sale (not me but its just a segment of the market that would stay in play vs custom spindles).

There is definitely a market for what we are after. Anyone who puts coilovers and reduces the height a bit becomes an instant potential customer... track guys who want a kit like this but still street their car as well would be more keen on this than the pure race options... track guys that dont drift and dont want a huge change to their steering ratio would be keen on it and TBH track guys that arent at the 10ths end of the field would be more keen on sealed joints that require less maintenance than straight heim joints.

I think its great MRT are open to a re-design - this is potentially the angle we should chase - maybe get a bit of a poll going to gauge interest and then if the interest is high take that back to them to try pressure them (or others like CMP as I'd rathe buy local :P) to design what we are after. I'm pretty busy until next week but if someone hasnt done it by then I will look to put a poll together on this so we can start to gauge interest... might try do it on M3Cutters/MForum as well to try capture as much of the potential market as possible now that M3Forum has become so fragmented

[pawa_k2001]

Haven't received a reply from MRT since Wednesday, I gave him measurements from VAC heim joints and he said they will try see if something can come together. Reached out to Bimmerworld, they said spindle will be over $2k easy. I offered them the MRT idea, below is their reply.

While those quicker steering STYLE kits are good in theory, it would not be our preferred method to tackle this project. We do already have a roll center correction control arm and we pair those with the Ground Control bump tie rods. The MRT setup is typically used on cars that don't get long runs and repeated abuse of curbing with big massive slicks. I have seen the bolts break on those for cars that see serious track or race use. Our roll center kit uses a stronger design with a welded on cone to help support the large through bolt.

[STAATS]

Haven't received a reply from MRT since Wednesday, I gave him measurements from VAC heim joints and he said they will try see if something can come together. Reached out to Bimmerworld, they said spindle will be over $2k easy. I offered them the MRT idea, below is their reply.

That response from Bimmerworld seems fair. I can definately see the loads from bit wide slick tyres bouncing off curbs being an issue... but it ignores the market for this piece would probably not be for people in that section of the field and its not like that issue cant be designed out... their point about what they already have RE: lower control arms / tie rods is basically the point i was making before with regards to the spindle in that the tubular LCAs and tie rods solve the issue without the need or cost for a custom spindle but they also end up making the car too race car which is where the MRT product is a niche if It could keep standard steering ratio.

[pawa_k2001]

I have been away on a month long roadtrip, MRT has sent a response, let me know what you guys think.

So sorry for the late response to your message, Facebook inbox was flooded and seems that we have completely missed this.
VAC apparently uses imperial size rod ends and it's a size bigger than our M14 metric also.
In case an extended mounting solution would be made we should offer our tie rods in addition of that. What do you think would it be something that a group of people would be interested to buy?

The kit would be the same as our current roll center bump steer kit (30mm correction) but without the quicker steering, and the tie rods would have the same 3 position adjustment ±5mm.