SMG to Manual Bellhousing Machining

[sapote]

You are continuing to create a narrative that this is a problem..

I’m saying it has the potential problem. I’m sure Getrag engineers had went through a brainstorm of having a step in the bore or none before they made these boxes.

[Anri]

. Without the step in the holes, the sleeves can move in and cause problem.

Sapote,

I have done 30+ and continue to do bells for few shops I work with.

Just sharing some thoughts. The reason why the sleeves are protruding
like in the pic because whoever installed them pushed them little bit down.
On my housing I am flushed with the end of the casting and I don't protrude
inside. I have a tool that has a stopper so that every sleeve is pressed the
same depth. But say the sleeves are protruding inside by 0.5mm its not
a problem but I prefer to be flushed.


Most of us are doing this are using a threaded plug including myself. So
when you cut the threads we need sufficient threats/depth to hold up. On the
reverse spring I have only 3-threads sounds like its not enough but never had
problems at all if I give more threads the spring pressure is increased...and I
don't want that for comfort reason and extend shifter bushing life.

The reason I prefer the threaded plug is leak free and longevity. Remove the
plug replace the crush washer and go...but with the sealer I use I don't think
this is going to be an issue for the life of the transmission. Kaiv has kept the
OEM design nothing wrong with this and Originality stand point but I again
I prefer the threaded plug because they will never leak solution and the OEM
will leak back again....

The sleeves are press fit with little pressure like ~5" thou. Ones the sleeve
is in the pins/cyl do have like let say around 1-2' thou or so bore clearance for
oil film as BMW designed it. If the pins are pressed with let say 11"thou preassure
the pin will bind, its a very time consuming procedure even the room temp has
an impact on how nice the pin will slide inside. (I also improve oiling in that area
but that is my personal modification which I have never seen done by others will
share later times).

I also have done a test by putting the bell housing in the shop oven to heat up
and test when the bell housing heats up and parts expand to see how the pin is sliding
inside..I am picky and like to test everything and specially under work out. The
Aluminum has greater expansions vs the steel pins and the tolerances between the
pin is little greater vs cold.

Hope this gives a little idea of the process and the approach. Any thoughts of
yours and comment are all welcomed.

Regards,
Anri

[sapote]

Hi Anri,

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experiences on this.
I personally prefer using the diff drain plugs instead of the factory C-clip and plastic cap as the former is easier to install compare to the 3-hand person to install the C-clip over the cap.

Remove the plug replace the crush washer and go

You meant the rubber o-ring on the drain plug (Diff drain plug) – as I don’t think it has crush washer?

The sleeves are press fit with little pressure like ~5" thou

Is the interference 5 tenth (0.0005”), not 5 thou (0.005”) for the sleeve and bore”? This sounds about right for aluminum bore and steel sleeve. I think one can warm the BH and freeze the sleeves then they should slide in without much pressing force.

Btw, anyone know if the big detent spring from the 250G used on E46 non-M can be used for the 420G BH? Its part # 23311228487
and pic below. I'm 99% they are the same, but why people bought the McMaster Cars and modified it for use?

[sapote]

As George said the ZF-5 bore has no step for the sleeve, and so maybe I also will take the risk to not having the step in the bore when machine my BH. The main reason is that I will press the sleeve slightly protrude beyond the BH interior wall (clear from the sweeping roller though) for minimize cantilever force pushing on the sleeve by the pin whenever the roller is riding on the pin chamfer. This will minimize wear on the pin and the sleeve at the bearing surface opposite of the pin chamfer.
Anri - what do you think about the protruding sleeve idea?

[sapote]

On the
reverse spring I have only 3-threads sounds like its not enough but never had
problems at all if I give more threads the spring pressure is increased...and I
don't want that for comfort reason and extend shifter bushing life.

Hi Anri,

On the stiff R detent subject, I have this idea and see what you think.
With the sleeves pressed deeper in than the factory setup, this gives more space for the threaded plugs, and the only concerned we have is the R detent stiff spring if the threaded plug is in too deep. I would keep the same R spring but use a different pin with less of the chamfer angle -- like this multi-facet 5th pin instead of the stock single facet chamfer R pin. With the 5th detent pin in the R hole, the detent feel will be softer but still able to differentiate from the 1st/2nd gate.

[sapote]

What stops the roller moving pass the detent pin after pressed the pin down? Is the limiter in the BH (the shaft with the big spring), or by the main shift rod inside the tranny?
Edit: I think this half-donut mysterious part (above the big spring) in the pic below limits the swing range of the roller. The larger short shaft has a pin and the half-donut thing has a circular slot to limit the swinging pin.
Edit: or maybe the roller center shaft extended down long enough to hit the the 2 pin-stoppers -- so the small stopper pucks have dual functions: stop the detent pin and limit the range of the shifter lever left-right. The what is the purpose of that half donut thing above the big torsion spring? counter balance for the roller arm? Or it is the spring shaft bearing bolted to the case?

[sapote]

When I convert my BH, I will machine and install the detent for the Reverse only, not the 5/6 gears. I'm used to the classis 901 Porsche tranny, and no reason for me to need the 5th/6th detent -- less things to go wrong.

[Anri]

Hi Sapote,

Remember, when you have 5 thou pressure that is not that much and
its not critical to use the freeze/heat procedure. Also remember the
first heat cycle the aluminum will tend to warp and this will increase the
pressure. For the past several bells I kept reducing the pressure more
and more so I get pressure down to around 3 thou is all perfect. I also use
a honing brush with grid to take let say 1.5 thou..

Here is my way on the plug: The plugs I use are aluminum so it matches
alu on alu.The reason why I don't like the Diff plug is because it compresses
the springs a lot more tdue to how deep it goes inside thus one
has to push the sleeve further down. The Springs have installed "height"
just like valves springs. When you have C clip plug the heavy spring installed
height is diff than installing the diff plug everybody does which is not bad but
in my opinion it makes the shifter much stiffer and wares out the bushings.
I tried to cut down the diff plug but not enough room as the allen depth is
too much

So I had to find allen plug thread with reduced allen depth so I can cut down
the total length. Again on the stiff side I am running 2.5 threads. On the soft
side I am running 4-5 threads. I also have machined bottom of the plug and it
has a Guide-Pin so that the springs locks inside without the spring to wiggle.
(I always like to over engineer it..its fun eh )

Another point is that I am using crush washer just like on your oil pan which
is better sealing than the o-ring alone. I mentioned that the plug I am using
will never ever leak.

Just sharing.

Regards,
Anri

[Anri]

What stops the roller moving pass the detent pin after pressed the pin down?

Sapote,

You have to angle the spring so that it's pushing the roller
against the soft-upper piston with "zero"play, this is critical
but the same time the spring end has to have tension against
the stop-pin.

If you don't do that the shifter will have nasty play by not
much but it's not done properly just like not installing the
sleeves....

One guy called me and asked me why am I charging
$650.....? and he has a shop can do it for $350. It's normal
you put a lot effort to make things at least as factory or
even better and just people don't see that..all they see
is why are you charging 650 for 2 holes ...

Regards
Anri

[sapote]

Sapote,
You have to angle the spring so that it's pushing the roller
against the soft-upper piston with "zero"play, this is critical
but the same time the spring end has to have tension against
the stop-pin.

If you don't do that the shifter will have nasty play by not
much but it's not done properly just like not installing the
sleeves....

Anri,
Sorry if I wasn't clear in my question, but I think you misunderstood it. The question is what stops the roller from going pass the Reverse pin, and continue to go down in the picture away from the pin, if the driver continues to move the shifter to the left beyond the R 'gate'?

[sapote]

Remember, when you have 5 thou pressure that is not that much and
its not critical to use the freeze/heat procedure.

Sorry, but I don't understand 5 thou pressure here. If pressure is the force to press the sleeve in the bore, then pressure/force should be in lbs or Newton, or Kg (kilogram), not 5 thou of an inch.

The reason why I don't like the Diff plug is because it compresses
the springs a lot more tdue to how deep it goes inside thus one
has to push the sleeve further down. The Springs have installed "height"
just like valves springs. When you have C clip plug the heavy spring installed
height is diff than installing the diff plug everybody does which is not bad but
in my opinion it makes the shifter much stiffer and wares out the bushings.
I tried to cut down the diff plug but not enough room as the allen depth is
too much

So I had to find allen plug thread with reduced allen depth so I can cut down
the total length. Again on the stiff side I am running 2.5 threads. On the soft
side I am running 4-5 threads. I also have machined bottom of the plug and it
has a Guide-Pin so that the springs locks inside without the spring to wiggle.
(I always like to over engineer it..its fun eh )

Another point is that I am using crush washer just like on your oil pan which
is better sealing than the o-ring alone.

These are good tips, and thank you for it.
Due to the threads depth and the Allen hex pocket, I see why you use thick crushed washer instead of the o-ring (as on the Diff plug). To keep the factory feel on the shifter, I will try to keep the working spring length the same as the factory, and this means the hex plug needs thicker washer so I can drill a hole on the plug for the spring. Maybe this is the reason why Kaiv use the factory c-clip and cap, as the long hex plug with a thick washer looks 'wrong'. It's more difficult to machine the groove for the c-clip though.

[Anri]

I see why you use thick crushed washer instead of the o-ring (as on the Diff plug)

Sapote,

No, even without the washer the plug I am using is shorter than the differential
one you are using. It's not that I am trying to make up the distances or depth
via the washer. Using the washer is pure to seal better than the rubber ring.
If we lay them down on a flat surface its shorter. Years back I measured them
but forgot the difference. If you are interest sent me your phone number via PM
and I will sent you pictures via text, its too much work and I am lazy to post online
this small stuff. I will also sent you the pressure in Metric tried to cover this to Inches
because I know your nature is "Standard" but I think I messed the conversion.
(I personally hate inches when I work with car parts)and why all of my measuring
tools are in Metric...I don't have single tool in Inches, Corvette moved to Metric system
long ago in their engines, this is BMW forum not Ford Model-A.


I will also show you the mechanical stop.


Kaiv is not doing it because the spring height etc...his motto is "Factory-Original"
There are people who appreciate the effort to see OEM design. Nothing
wrong, But when the factory design leaks then guess what...the plug design
will never see a shop for that specific leak again but the OEM will.


Regards,
Anri

[BoomTastic]

Interesting problem. No way that the old steel sleeve has swollen and its diameter become smaller. I have 2 theories:
1. I think the gap between the pin and the sleeve is filled with contaminant paste -- mixture of oil and metal powder (from pin and sleeve rubbing). Instead of replace the old sleeve (fold it inward then pull out), do you think if one just cleans the sleeve bore and the pin really good, lube with oil, install and they will work like new again? I saw videos that people made a mess on the aluminum bore when trying to fold the old sleeve inward in order to remove it. If it were me, I would try to clean the sleeve bore and polish it, instead of remove and replace it.
2. When the shifter is moved for the 5/6 or R gates, the ball bearing rolls over the detent pin ramp angle to press the pin out. The ramp angle is like 45*, so half of the afford is to push the pin against the sleeve, and this roughed up the pin/sleeve surface causing more friction. Imagine if the spring is not pushing back at the center of the pin, but offset to the ramp side of the pin -- this creates the worst case scenario that the combination of the ramp force and the spring force cause the pin to want to rotate (cock eye) and lock up on the rough surface.

I have this question and hopefully you can help with the data: The factory hole has a step, and the plastic seal cap blocks the other end, then why the hole was machined so tight than one needs to hammer on the sleeve (installer rod) to press it into the hole? Why not machine the hole a little larger so the sleeve can be installed easier but with no obvious backlash or clearance. This would make sleeve removal an easy task.

Pic below shows the installed sleeves have no step, as we can see the sleeve bottom is protruding into the BH. If it is a tight fit, then it is better to install the sleeve this deep as it has less chance for the pin to cock eye and lock up.
Last is the sleeve orientation. Do people align the sleeve seam line to a particular position or just random? I would align the sleeve seam line to the same side as the pin ramp face. This leaves the sleeve smooth bearing surface for the pin to slide against when the ball bearing riding on the pin ramp, less chance of lock up on a rougher surface. Maybe the sleeve seam line should be 90* away form the pin ramp face is the best choice.

That is an image of one of my housings.

That is false, outer step does not exist on a factory design. I would appreciate it if you fixed your mistake associating it with image of my work.

It is essentially a press fit design so a step would serve no purpose, other than for replacement later to bottom out simplifying the job.
Factory seam is mostly random. At the end of the day chances are your trans will crap out long before the sleeves need replacing. Your effort is commendable but at this point you are splitting hairs.

Sleeves have a very smooth nylon type coating designed to improve sliding action. Once that is gone you are left with metal to metal with no direct lubrication, nor are they submerged... they will eventually lock up.

When I convert my BH, I will machine and install the detent for the Reverse only, not the 5/6 gears. I'm used to the classis 901 Porsche tranny, and no reason for me to need the 5th/6th detent -- less things to go wrong.

What you re suggesting will not work, you will have a dangling dick of a lever. You are trying to reinvent the wheel and its a recipe for lost time and frustration. Take the time to understand what will happen if you remove any of its spring loaded components. If you are struggling with this concept of the mechanism, walk away, its only gets worse from here on.

You have two opposing forces with something in the middle, think about what will happen if you take one of them away.


Anris quote about rates is spot on. Being meticulous matters, its about pride in the work and overall outcome. Some people charge more, some less.
Experience will outweigh any amount of virgins meticulous planning, its not just this, its life, and you get one shot at this.

Whether you pay Anri, me, lang whatever... your chances of negative outcome is still less. Its not a sales pitch, its statistical reality.

Ever hear saying" If you haven't fucked up, you haven't done enough of it". Failure is where you really learn.

[Tbird88tbo]

you will have a dangling dick of a lever. .

LMAO. Quality entertainment here. 😂😂😂

[Tbird88tbo]

I agree with using a threaded plug over the stock style plug with retainer. They are much easier to install and also seal better. I like to use a oil relief plug out of a Subaru oil pump (part number 15021AA050). They are the perfect size, are flanged for a seal, and have a spring relief cut into them.