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    #31
    Originally posted by Obioban View Post

    If you don't think they're more convenient, I don't think you've owned one. Owning one really brings to light lots of things that are annoying about ICEV ownership. Getting in to a car that's cold or hot, getting gas, warming up an engine, oil changes, spark plug changes, coils, limp mode, sensors, bla bla bla. When all you've owned is ICEVs you don't really notice it, because it's how life has always been, but once you've had to deal with none of it... suddenly you realize it actually is a bit annoying.

    Where are you pulling 10 years for battery life from? BMW/Samsung says the battery in the i3 is good for at least 20 years, and there's lots of Models Ss on the road that are coming up on 10 years old at this point and still going strong.

    Maintenance is not even close. All I do on the i3 is the cabin air filter and brake fluid every 2 years. I assume I'll have to do brakes at some point, but probably not before ~200,000 miles. On my 3 other cars I care about I do this: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...ockdown-thread

    Batteries are historically expensive, but RAPIDLY becoming not. Later this month is Tesla's battery day, which should mark a significant jump forward (downward) in $/kwh (which I'm actually excited for, as I want to buy a couple power walls).

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    Oil is not trending similarly :P

    A NA camry is about as low maintenance as an ICEV can get. It's also not at all representative of what the average person is buying, or what event will be available to buy new in the near future. Government mandated fuel economy and emissions targets are increasingly making it so auto manufactures can't produce ICEVs that are long term reliable/serviceable. Used cars will follow, as the existing used fleet ages out.

    Which, by the way, I 100% agree is not a good thing (not endorsing it, just pointing out the reality of the situation). I try to buy everything in such a way that it's as close as possible to a one time purchase, that I won't be making again. I won't buy a house made before ~1970 (and REALLY not anything made in the last 10-20 years), I won't buy anything with Turbos or automatics, I avoid as much as possible anything made in China, etc. I am not concerned about the i3 not being long term viable. It can't rust. Upkeep is minimal. It really only has two expensive components-- the motor, which is $3000 new from FCP (with lifetime warranty) and the battery (easy to pick up for <$3000 used). I don't expect to be replacing either of those anytime soon, if ever. If they did, I would DIY the replacement-- neither looks to be particularly hard (or dangerous, if you disconnect the battery first). Otherwise it's just brake fluid and cabin air filters every 2 years, and drive.
    I'm hopeful for Tesla's new breakthrough with the graphine in the battery. I do feel as though the numbers will be inflated, as always. They'll still be better than all others. Lithium ions now have about a 1000 to 2000 life cycle depending on how deep it is cycled each time. If you cycle your battery from 65%- 85% each time, it'll last longer than if you're dropping it to 40 or 50%. I have formal training with hybrids but nothing with EVs and that's not something I would trust a YouTube video on. Probably just like a hybrids without the ICE. Your i3 battery may last 20 years but it won't be doing very well at the end. Hopefully the price of batteries gets reasonable by the time you need one and innovation is some our species excels at. Oh, and batteries do have a temperature range they need to operate in to be efficient.

    If EVs become the majority of transportation, I know prices of metals will increase and fuel may decrease due to higher supply than demand. This trend will always fluctuate. Lately oil has been super cheap. There's at lot of plastic in cars so oil increasing is still bad for EVs.

    I'll probably own ICE's until the day I can't fix them anymore. Can't let my degree go to waste. Might possibly LS swap a Tesla later in life because why not? Only time will tell if our M3s will outlast the i3. I'm rooting for M3 if you couldn't tell.

    .
    This is my Unbuild Journal and why we need an oil thread
    https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...nbuild-journal

    "Do it right once or do it twice"

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      #32
      Originally posted by Arith2 View Post

      I'm hopeful for Tesla's new breakthrough with the graphine in the battery. I do feel as though the numbers will be inflated, as always. They'll still be better than all others. Lithium ions now have about a 1000 to 2000 life cycle depending on how deep it is cycled each time. If you cycle your battery from 65%- 85% each time, it'll last longer than if you're dropping it to 40 or 50%. I have formal training with hybrids but nothing with EVs and that's not something I would trust a YouTube video on. Probably just like a hybrids without the ICE. Your i3 battery may last 20 years but it won't be doing very well at the end. Hopefully the price of batteries gets reasonable by the time you need one and innovation is some our species excels at. Oh, and batteries do have a temperature range they need to operate in to be efficient.

      If EVs become the majority of transportation, I know prices of metals will increase and fuel may decrease due to higher supply than demand. This trend will always fluctuate. Lately oil has been super cheap. There's at lot of plastic in cars so oil increasing is still bad for EVs.

      I'll probably own ICE's until the day I can't fix them anymore. Can't let my degree go to waste. Might possibly LS swap a Tesla later in life because why not? Only time will tell if our M3s will outlast the i3. I'm rooting for M3 if you couldn't tell.

      .
      Hybrid batteries (including PHEVs) have a much harder life than EV batteries. They're smaller, so they get cycled a TON more. EV batteries are (AFAIK universally) not allowed a full charge or discharge. The i3 will only charge to 93% (cluster indicates 100% when battery is at 93%) and down to 7% (cluster indicates 0% when battery is at 7%). Outside of the first gen Leaf EV batteries all also have thermal management-- keeping them warm in the winter and cool in the summer, which is also good for longevity (and not present on many hybrids). Tesla lets you set the max charge percent in their big ass screen, so you can operate even more in the middle of the capacity range (I believe the default is 80% max charge).

      Samsung considers batteries to be end of life when the fall under 80% of original capacity. It says the battery should lost 583,000 miles and >20 years, so I'd expect the state at 20 years to be >=80% of original capacity.

      I added another paragraph to the last post after your clicked reply :P

      ... I also have no intention of not having ICE cars. For driving enjoyment, they're just way, way better. Sound, shifting, and HPS can't be replicated in EVs. But... 99% of the population doesn't care about that (as seen by most modern ICEVs having EPS and automatics).

      I do think it's going to be more difficult to routinely use an ICEV. As people transition off them, they'll be less demand for gas. That should make it cheaper, but it'll also lead to less gas stations... which will push more people away from ICEVs as daily transport... which will lead to less gas stations still... etc.

      2005 IR/IR M3 Coupe
      2004 JR/Black M3 Wagon
      2001 LMB/Black M5 Sedan
      2017 i3 Hatchback

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Obioban View Post

        Hybrid batteries (including PHEVs) have a much harder life than EV batteries. They're smaller, so they get cycled a TON more. EV batteries are (AFAIK universally) not allowed a full charge or discharge. The i3 will only charge to 93% (cluster indicates 100% when battery is at 93%) and down to 7% (cluster indicates 0% when battery is at 7%). Outside of the first gen Leaf EV batteries all also have thermal management-- keeping them warm in the winter and cool in the summer, which is also good for longevity (and not present on many hybrids). Tesla lets you set the max charge percent in their big ass screen, so you can operate even more in the middle of the capacity range (I believe the default is 80% max charge).

        Samsung considers batteries to be end of life when the fall under 80% of original capacity. It says the battery should lost 583,000 miles and >20 years, so I'd expect the state at 20 years to be >=20% of original capacity.

        I added another paragraph to the last post after your clicked reply :P

        ... I also have no intention of not having ICE cars. For driving enjoyment, they're just way, way better. Sound, shifting, and HPS can't be replicated in EVs. But... 99% of the population doesn't care about that (as seen by most modern ICEVs having EPS and automatics).

        I do think it's going to be more difficult to routinely use an ICEV. As people transition off them, they'll be less demand for gas. That should make it cheaper, but it'll also lead to less gas stations... which will push more people away from ICEVs as daily transport... which will lead to less gas stations still... etc.
        I had to read, "lead to less gas stations" a few times. I kept seeing lead gas for some reason.

        We may not even transition to EVs like we are thinking depending on a bunch of factors. Already, it is harder to drive ICEVs due to regulations and culture. In the 50s, most had basic knowledge of cars. Now, it's the opposite. We are a vast minority because most people just have a "Microwave mentality". The counter is dealerships have trained technicians for these cars to still allow the owner to exert the same amount of effort as an EV.

        Things are always changing and gas stations may turn all to charge stations that sell gas bottles inside or something. I dread the change to EV but one day, they will even be phased out for a better energy source. Hopefully the new 27 mile Particle Accelerator will help these discoveries.
        This is my Unbuild Journal and why we need an oil thread
        https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...nbuild-journal

        "Do it right once or do it twice"

        Comment


          #34
          I'm mostly interested in batteries and electric motors for torque fill to mitigate turbo lag. I'd love to be able to replace my bell housing/clutch assembly with a sandwiched electric motor type system in my race car to mitigate off boost turbo lag. The downside to a system like that is the increase in weight from the battery pack. It's also extremely complicated to integrate regenerative braking into a race car.
          Phoenix Yellow e46m3 Build Thread
          Melbourne Red e93m3

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            #35
            Again interesting feedback. Back and forth on ICE vs Electric I see. I would argue it's not about how on electric, it's current deficiencies in 2020 time line - it is Inevitable. Electrification of cars is here to stay. Don't confuse current battery tech, how it's charged and it's range. It's undeniable - electrification is the future IMHO.... No 2 ways about it..

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by franklin View Post
              Again interesting feedback. Back and forth on ICE vs Electric I see. I would argue it's not about how on electric, it's current deficiencies in 2020 time line - it is Inevitable. Electrification of cars is here to stay. Don't confuse current battery tech, how it's charged and it's range. It's undeniable - electrification is the future IMHO.... No 2 ways about it..
              No one is arguing that. But it is funny when people say "electrification is the future", a rather meaningless comment.

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