Is E46/E9X M3 -> 911 GT3 just the natural progression of things?

[eacmen]

I've never driven any of them so I dont really have a horse in the barn here but I guess what I'm saying is i wouldn't be upset to have any of these in my garage. While the Gt3 is the most extreme, they are all a big step above the e46 (maybe you can argue the gt350 isnt) and it would be a shame to dismiss them so fast because racecar. Also it depends what you want and it doesnt have to be all or nothing. If I live on the track, GT3 is probably the most racecar. If I value beauty, exclusivity and a drive through the forest or down the coast alone on a Saturday morning, the F430, takes the trophy.

Agree 100 percent. All my opinions are of course completely subjective and based on my choice in the M3 as primarily a track car.

For example most lambos are a no-go for me as my neck is compressed against the roof with a helmet on.

Never drove the gt350 but its lap times at the events i've been to are impressive.


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[Icecream]

Assuming dual street/track duty the F430 is the best of that list. But comparing running costs the GT3 would still be my choice.

Its hard to describe. The GT3 wants you to push it right out of the gate. You get in and it just feels right. The F430 takes more finesse get comfortable with it but once you get it, its a ton of fun.


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I've never driven any of them so I dont really have a horse in the barn here but I guess what I'm saying is i wouldn't be upset to have any of these in my garage. While the Gt3 is the most extreme, they are all a big step above the e46 (maybe you can argue the gt350 isnt) and it would be a shame to dismiss them so fast because racecar. Also it depends what you want and it doesnt have to be all or nothing. If I live on the track, GT3 is probably the most racecar. If I value beauty, exclusivity and a drive through the forest or down the coast alone on a Saturday morning, the F430, takes the trophy.

[eacmen]

As I Think about this, even more alternatives come up. i know these will also get some hate here but....... they are more attainable than a GT3 or as obtainable, have 6spd manuals, are NA, high revving sweet mobiles and a couple won’t even land you in the national prison system should you decide to have some fun:
GT350R (I know I know but still a cool car)
360 Modena
F430
F355
Gallardo
the littlest McLaren is probably pretty obtainable too.

Assuming dual street/track duty the F430 is the best of that list. But comparing running costs the GT3 would still be my choice.

Its hard to describe. The GT3 wants you to push it right out of the gate. You get in and it just feels right. The F430 takes more finesse get comfortable with it but once you get it, its a ton of fun.


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[Icecream]

As I Think about this, even more alternatives come up. i know these will also get some hate here but....... they are more attainable than a GT3 or as obtainable, have 6spd manuals, are NA, high revving sweet mobiles and a couple won’t even land you in the national prison system should you decide to have some fun:
GT350R (I know I know but still a cool car)
360 Modena
F430
F355
Gallardo
the littlest McLaren is probably pretty obtainable too.

[clawhamm3r]

I'd go GT4 personally, but wife wants a boat first.

[tnord]

My 996 is stock other than Eibach springs and Bilstein sports. It just hit 50k miles. The low end and mid range just feels better to me than my E46. It's nice to have power below 4k RPM and it isn't necessary to redline it in order to get it moving. The steering feels lighter than my E46 but still accurate. Operating cost have been low so far. The only repair outside of maintenance so far has been a air/oil separator failure. I replaced it with a stock AOS but I'll probably revisit that again with a motorsport part. I'd like to take it the the track every once and a while so the motorsport AOS will help prevent a smoke screen from coming out of my exhaust after some heavy cornering. That'll be addressed when a get the IMS solution done in the next few months.

as I'll likely be shopping for a car without the IMS done to try and get the price down and to make sure it's done the right way. I'm under the impression you just do the clutch at the same time? anything else maintenance wise? Probably about a $2500-$3500 shop bill?

I think you like how the C4 feels because the steering feel is similar to how a BMW feels. Initially, I preferred the AWD car as well. They have way more steering feel which gives the driver more confidence.

If the 996 will be your only car, I can see how the interior isn't as appealing as a 997 or newer 911. It's really just an update of an air cooled 911's interior. There is nothing innovative or modern present.

I don't know that I prefer the C4S feel or not, as the one C2 I drove really was a turd. I don't need, or even want modern tech in the interior. I flew to San Antonio to pick up my 330 because it was a sport package car with no i-drive.

I like the idea of the C4S with a 2wd conversion. I, like you, love the turbo body. For the prices the C4S are climbing to though, I would consider just going with a turbo at that point. One thing to note, AWD Porsches love to go through front wheel bearings. They generally last 30k-60k miles. So you may want to inquire if they've been replaced. They don't necessarily make noise when they're bad. Instead, they can just cause one of the front brakes to drag.

If you know someone with a 996, ask them to borrow it for a weekend. It's not the type of car that anyone can just jump in and be fast. You won't be able to decide if you like it or not with one test drive. The driving dynamics are too different from what you're probably use to. If you do decide you like it, you won't want to go back.

I think I'll like the look of the C4S better, but I can't say I've stood next to them side by side. Unfortunately I really don't know anyone with a 996 or any 911 for that matter. I'm kinda disconnected from the car scene as I play a ton of golf on the weekend. I've been trying to find time to make it to a cars and coffee so hopefully I can do some pointed browsing. The last one my wife had to work and I had the kids.

Has the C4S market being going up recently? How much? Just ticking up or starting to take off like the E46 M3 market? Much above $30k and I'll just get a well appointed C2. The other strategy is to just become very educated on the issues of the car, and buy one from a non-enthusiast that needs a little TLC. I think that's easier to do with the 911 as there's really only one major issue with them, and if the car hasn't blown up you're pretty much good. The E46 M3 has all kinds of hidden issues that need to be addressed.

[Obioban]

In much the same vein, I feel like the next step up from the GT3 is the F1/T50. I can’t think of anything else more expensive than a GT3 that I desire. That’s an even more extreme jump, but I can’t think of anything between them.

[bmwMpower1]

I feel like it has always been a natural evolution that every m3 driver would want to graduate to a gt3, myself included. I recently picked up a 997 gt3 "competitor" I have been lusting after for 13 or so years. The CLK63 Black is quite a riot to drive, but if I'm being completely honest the M3 is a far more precise car full of feel and even SMG feels like PDK after getting out of the auto in the merc.

Definitely want to pick up a GT3 in the future as I believe it's probably the only thing that will top the driving experience of the E46 to me.

[eacmen]

You would take a stock e46 M3 over a V10 R8 on a track?

I have never driven a fully stock m3 on track. So can't really make that comparison.

Will the r8 have better lap times? yes

Will the m3 be more fun to drive? yes

The r8 is awd with mostly rear bias, but it still awd. Its just a different driving feel. I prefer rwd.

The next step for me after the m3 is a pcar, either gt4 or gt3. But lots of driver mods until that's a reality.


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[Icecream]

I've driven the r8 v10 and v8. On track and off. I would choose the e46m3 over it on track for sure.

on the street hard to beat the infotainment and comforts of the r8.


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You would take a stock e46 M3 over a V10 R8 on a track?

[eacmen]

Surprised it took 5 pages for this to come up:
R8 V10

im sure some smart ass here will complain about how it’s not visceral enough or it’s too fast or how it won’t be easy to maintain like a camry lol but it’s a legit option.

I've driven the r8 v10 and v8. On track and off. I would choose the e46m3 over it on track for sure.

on the street hard to beat the infotainment and comforts of the r8.


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[Icecream]

Surprised it took 5 pages for this to come up:
R8 V10

im sure some smart ass here will complain about how it’s not visceral enough or it’s too fast or how it won’t be easy to maintain like a camry lol but it’s a legit option.

[r4dr]

Another factor: people got older, have kids and a family. So there's a family hauler, which gives you a lot more flexibility with the weekend car since you don't need the practicality.

[skristedja]

You’re talking $6k-$12k e46 m3 to $100k+ 996/997 gt3. I wouldn’t say that’s a natural progression for vast majority of e46 guys lol

It's not that weird when you consider that the e46 m3 was around $55k almost twenty years ago and anyone who could afford one then can certainly afford a gt3 now. It's pretty simple why there is so much overlap-- the cars have a similar formula: coupe, rwd, 300+hp, high-revving atmospheric engine, track-focused, manual transmission, great handling, good looks. For people who love those characteristics, there isn't much else that will quench that thirst.

[Geoff.T]

curious if you could elaborate on this more? just that the 911 is lighter and has more mid-range than the M3 so it feels faster without really going all that fast? I've test driven two 911s, one C2 that seemed like a bucket of bolts, and another decent one but it was a C4. I'm torn between getting the C4S and ripping out the AWD gear just to get the turbo body, or saving the $10k and just getting the 996.1 in a good spec. I actually liked the C4 better than the C2 I drove, probably just because it was in better shape, but I didn't find it quite as exciting to drive as my M3. And that was back when my M3 was basically bone stock. Although it was a dealer car so I was being fairly nice to it, and I had a 250lb passenger as well.

I'm not suggesting that the 996 interior falls apart, just that how the materials look, and to the touch, didn't seem as nice. that center stack of hard plastic kinda kills it. is your C2 bone stock? curious what you're seeing as operating costs. the wife thinks I'm mad for considering another toy, but it just seems like a fun car to mess around with that's not going to get any cheaper.

need to go drive a good one to really make a decision.

My 996 is stock other than Eibach springs and Bilstein sports. It just hit 50k miles. The low end and mid range just feels better to me than my E46. It's nice to have power below 4k RPM and it isn't necessary to redline it in order to get it moving. The steering feels lighter than my E46 but still accurate. Operating cost have been low so far. The only repair outside of maintenance so far has been a air/oil separator failure. I replaced it with a stock AOS but I'll probably revisit that again with a motorsport part. I'd like to take it the the track every once and a while so the motorsport AOS will help prevent a smoke screen from coming out of my exhaust after some heavy cornering. That'll be addressed when a get the IMS solution done in the next few months.

I think you like how the C4 feels because the steering feel is similar to how a BMW feels. Initially, I preferred the AWD car as well. They have way more steering feel which gives the driver more confidence. Before I got my 996, I had the opportunity to track a few C2s and GT3s. Initially, it felt like the car wanted to understeer on turn in. I found if I slowed my hands down on turn in, and learned to trust the car, it turned in no problem. I was also able to get on throttle sooner than I could in my E46 which felt rewarding.

Aesthetically, the E46 has the nicer interior IMO. It kill me that the soft touch mares so easy, my titanium trim paint is shrinking and cracking, and before I refinished my pillar trim, I would get distracting on track when I'd catch the pillar trim fabric flapping around. The 996 interior is very basic and German. Everything is laid out well. The longer I sit in it, the greater appreciation I have for oval shapes LOL. It's a very minimalist interior in comparison to modern cars which I like. Mind you, I daily drive a 2020 F-150 Lariat Super Crew with all sorts of tech so the 996 is a nice escape from my rolling office. If the 996 will be your only car, I can see how the interior isn't as appealing as a 997 or newer 911. It's really just an update of an air cooled 911's interior. There is nothing innovative or modern present.

I like the idea of the C4S with a 2wd conversion. I, like you, love the turbo body. For the prices the C4S are climbing to though, I would consider just going with a turbo at that point. One thing to note, AWD Porsches love to go through front wheel bearings. They generally last 30k-60k miles. So you may want to inquire if they've been replaced. They don't necessarily make noise when they're bad. Instead, they can just cause one of the front brakes to drag.

If you know someone with a 996, ask them to borrow it for a weekend. It's not the type of car that anyone can just jump in and be fast. You won't be able to decide if you like it or not with one test drive. The driving dynamics are too different from what you're probably use to. If you do decide you like it, you won't want to go back.