Is E46/E9X M3 -> 911 GT3 just the natural progression of things?

[Obioban]

Curious what your car dyno'd at?

352 rwhp (SAE dynojet).

Stock cars dyno around 280-285 SAE dynojet. So, average that to 282.5. If 333 crank is 282.5 wheel, then 352 wheel is 415 crank... which, amusingly, is identical to stock 997.1 GT3.

[usdmej]

GT3 is a little too similar to a heavily modded E46 M3 to be worth the effort of selling one to buy the other imo

I'd like to someday get into an NA1 NSX but it looks like the market has left the stratosphere on a remotely driveable one

[Daniel]

I was thinking I'd get a 997 (peak GT3 for me) for a long time, but I'm kind of off it now. My M3 is at 997 GT3 weight, 997 GT3 horse power
The GT3 driving experience is better. But, for me at least, I don't believe the net experience is better.

Curious what your car dyno'd at?

[Jevi Javi]

me want GT4 RS....

[Steve]

tnord

Go with a 996 C4S and convert it to 2wd. I don't think you'll lose a dime on a C4S, in fact, they've been trending up in value here recently. While you may not love the front end, the rear 3/4 view is one of the best of any 911. As an added bonus, they all have a full leather interior, which makes the 996 a much nicer place to be compared to the plastic paradise of the base cars.

[tnord]

I agree a lot! It's not actually the pace of the GT cars that appeals to me-- it's the precision (ball joints instead of bushings, etc), engine dynamics, and weight, and feel of the GT cars that appeals to me. That's largely why I prefer the 997 GT3 to the 991 (though I haven't driven a GT 991, so I could be mislead by the base car)-- I don't care that it's faster, and I prefer the size, feel, and theoretically (in theory until I actually drive one) engine dynamics of the 997.
(which has also informed the way I've modded the coupe-- bushings have been made solid or sealed OE ball joints, #1 modding focus has been making it lighter and more communicative)

I think most modern cars have reached a point where they're actually being made significantly less fun by being made faster (which is also compounded by being larger, less feelsome, worse visibility, and turbo).

I'm kinda hoping I can make a "GT Lite" car during the course of maintenance for the exact purpose you outline. sharpen the edges if you will, OE+ and all that. I've never driven a GT car so I have the benefit of not knowing what I'm missing. I think the 996 GT3 can be had for ~$60-$70k, which isn't going to happen with my retirement goals. But $25k for a non-GT 996 is doable. Yes I know, factor in depreciation/appreciation and modification costs of each and it might wash out. I've already tried that approach to acquire the last of the manual transmission F-cars as an "investment," but she's not buying it.

I guess I kinda see the 996 as the one chance I'll have to own a 911 and see what it's all about.

You should drive an e39 530i manual. Significantly better steering than the e28 or e34, still light for a comfortable car (3450 with the spare tire and jack in-- so 20 lbs more than a e34 525i), awesome chassis, interior, comfort, reasonably modern safey and tech (e.g. has head protection airbags and bluetooth, but not any of the annoying stuff that interferes with or distracts from actually driving the car). Mostly, though, it has better feel-- how often is that the result of going with the newer car? Best all around car ever made at any price, IMO.
(because of reticulating ball steering in the 28/39 but R&P in the 6 cylinder e39)

So long as the car is fully depreciated, it kind of doesn't matter what the purchase price is, long term-- you should get it back when you sell (or more, if you find something on the rise).

I had an E39 525 as a daily for maybe 5 years. Even as a base model automatic, that was leaking from everywhere and I had to work way too much on, I really liked it and looked for a 530 with a manual, or even a 540 but ended up with the 2006 330 I have now instead. For some reason I kinda want to do a S52 swap into one of the later E34s. I bought a 230k mile 535i in college for $2500 and I should have kept it. It was kind of a big boat of a thing but was very engaging to drive.

My old baseball coach had an E34 540 he used to have me detail and let me take to prom, which started my affinity for BMW. He later traded it in for a Laguna E46 M3 that I was infatuated with and led to my eventual ownership of my own E46 M3. In short, as with most of us, we're just buying up the cars we wanted as kids but couldn't have.

I have a line on an E39 M5 that may throw all of this out the window. Though I kinda hate to make that my daily.

[Obioban]

especially with yours, there's probably nothing below a GT car that's much of a performance improvement. I'm a bit odd, as I don't want that much performance and don't have much interest in the hyper performance of modern cars.

I agree a lot! It's not actually the pace of the GT cars that appeals to me-- it's the precision (ball joints instead of bushings, etc), engine dynamics, and weight, and feel of the GT cars that appeals to me. That's largely why I prefer the 997 GT3 to the 991 (though I haven't driven a GT 991, so I could be mislead by the base car)-- I don't care that it's faster, and I prefer the size, feel, and theoretically (in theory until I actually drive one) engine dynamics of the 997.
(which has also informed the way I've modded the coupe-- bushings have been made solid or sealed OE ball joints, #1 modding focus has been making it lighter and more communicative)

I think most modern cars have reached a point where they're actually being made significantly less fun by being made faster (which is also compounded by being larger, less feelsome, worse visibility, and turbo).

"slow" cars driven fast are more fun than fast cars driven slow and all that. of course, I'm a guy that raced miatas, and would love to get another e28 or maybe an e34 as the daily beater. i'm also a guy that's attracted to a good deal, and the 996 seems like a good buy right now. 997.1 looks better, but the costs of them start to get beyond what i can justify for a 2nd fun car.

You should drive an e39 530i manual. Significantly better steering than the e28 or e34, still light for a comfortable car (3450 with the spare tire and jack in-- so 20 lbs more than a e34 525i), awesome chassis, interior, comfort, reasonably modern safey and tech (e.g. has head protection airbags and bluetooth, but not any of the annoying stuff that interferes with or distracts from actually driving the car). Mostly, though, it has better feel-- how often is that the result of going with the newer car? Best all around car ever made at any price, IMO.
(because of reticulating ball steering in the 28/39 but R&P in the 6 cylinder e39)

So long as the car is fully depreciated, it kind of doesn't matter what the purchase price is, long term-- you should get it back when you sell (or more, if you find something on the rise).

[tnord]

especially with yours, there's probably nothing below a GT car that's much of a performance improvement. I'm a bit odd, as I don't want that much performance and don't have much interest in the hyper performance of modern cars.

"slow" cars driven fast are more fun than fast cars driven slow and all that. of course, I'm a guy that raced miatas, and would love to get another e28 or maybe an e34 as the daily beater. i'm also a guy that's attracted to a good deal, and the 996 seems like a good buy right now. 997.1 looks better, but the costs of them start to get beyond what i can justify for a 2nd fun car.

[Obioban]

neither of those costs are accurate.

Also, a large portion of e46 M3 owners could afford considerably more expensive cars-- as evidenced by the money spent on aftermarket parts often exceeding the value of the car :P

There's nothing between (price wise) the e46M and GT3 that tempts me.
(GT4 also temps me, but it's pricier than the GT3 that would want (997).

[tnord]

You’re talking $6k-$12k e46 m3 to $100k+ 996/997 gt3. I wouldn’t say that’s a natural progression for vast majority of e46 guys lol

neither of those costs are accurate.

[elbert]

If I were to get a Porsche, I think I would get the 718 GT4 for track duty. No personal experience, but I think it would be easier to drive fast than a GT3.

[Toby22]

You’re talking $6k-$12k e46 m3 to $100k+ 996/997 gt3. I wouldn’t say that’s a natural progression for vast majority of e46 guys lol

[sina]

996 center stack looks super Fisher-Price unfortunatel.

[tnord]

I have a 996.2 C2 that I drive on the weekends. I'll grab the keys to it before my E46 M3 every time. To me, it's more fun to drive on the street. The power band is so much more usable. I found the interior of the 996 has held up better than my E46 too. They're both 2002 model year. Nothing has come unglued or fallen off in the 996. By 911 standards, the 996 isn't the best version but it's still a damn good street car. The 996 understeers more than my M3 (far from stock, NT01s on all the time) but that can always be addressed with some improvements. Honestly, I wouldn't shed a tear at this point if I sold my E46. I think you should get one.

curious if you could elaborate on this more? just that the 911 is lighter and has more mid-range than the M3 so it feels faster without really going all that fast? I've test driven two 911s, one C2 that seemed like a bucket of bolts, and another decent one but it was a C4. I'm torn between getting the C4S and ripping out the AWD gear just to get the turbo body, or saving the $10k and just getting the 996.1 in a good spec. I actually liked the C4 better than the C2 I drove, probably just because it was in better shape, but I didn't find it quite as exciting to drive as my M3. And that was back when my M3 was basically bone stock. Although it was a dealer car so I was being fairly nice to it, and I had a 250lb passenger as well.

I'm not suggesting that the 996 interior falls apart, just that how the materials look, and to the touch, didn't seem as nice. that center stack of hard plastic kinda kills it. is your C2 bone stock? curious what you're seeing as operating costs. the wife thinks I'm mad for considering another toy, but it just seems like a fun car to mess around with that's not going to get any cheaper.

need to go drive a good one to really make a decision.

[Steve]

I've got track experience with a 997.2 C2S and I'd just go to a GT car if you're going to do track work. Plus, as weird as it sounds, if you spend more money upfront for a clean GT car, there's a fair chance you will break even when you sell it or possibly even make a bit of money. This includes doing track work with it. The 996 and 997 GT markets are very stable right now, even moreso with the RS models. I cannot say the same for the 991 GT cars. I don't think they will be held in the same regards as the 996/997 era largely due to the reasons Obioban alluded to.

For the street though... I'm angling towards a G50 Targa. Even the 997.2 C2S is a bit fast for backroads.

Yes, if you don’t mind the price of entry the GT cars are definitely worth it. Are they worth 3x a 997 C2S though? Perhaps if you live on the track, but for the average person the C2S is still a lot of car and loads of fun to drive.

If I had unlimited money, yeah, I’d go with a GT3 most likely, but I don’t so I’m more than happy with my C2S. The point of my post was that the ‘pedestrian models’ are still more capable and more solidly built than the E46 M3. To be fair, they should be as they were $20-30k more when new.