Is E46/E9X M3 -> 911 GT3 just the natural progression of things?

[tnord]

I have a 996.2 C2 that I drive on the weekends. I'll grab the keys to it before my E46 M3 every time. To me, it's more fun to drive on the street. The power band is so much more usable. I found the interior of the 996 has held up better than my E46 too. They're both 2002 model year. Nothing has come unglued or fallen off in the 996. By 911 standards, the 996 isn't the best version but it's still a damn good street car. The 996 understeers more than my M3 (far from stock, NT01s on all the time) but that can always be addressed with some improvements. Honestly, I wouldn't shed a tear at this point if I sold my E46. I think you should get one.

curious if you could elaborate on this more? just that the 911 is lighter and has more mid-range than the M3 so it feels faster without really going all that fast? I've test driven two 911s, one C2 that seemed like a bucket of bolts, and another decent one but it was a C4. I'm torn between getting the C4S and ripping out the AWD gear just to get the turbo body, or saving the $10k and just getting the 996.1 in a good spec. I actually liked the C4 better than the C2 I drove, probably just because it was in better shape, but I didn't find it quite as exciting to drive as my M3. And that was back when my M3 was basically bone stock. Although it was a dealer car so I was being fairly nice to it, and I had a 250lb passenger as well.

I'm not suggesting that the 996 interior falls apart, just that how the materials look, and to the touch, didn't seem as nice. that center stack of hard plastic kinda kills it. is your C2 bone stock? curious what you're seeing as operating costs. the wife thinks I'm mad for considering another toy, but it just seems like a fun car to mess around with that's not going to get any cheaper.

need to go drive a good one to really make a decision.

[sina]

996 center stack looks super Fisher-Price unfortunatel.

[Toby22]

You’re talking $6k-$12k e46 m3 to $100k+ 996/997 gt3. I wouldn’t say that’s a natural progression for vast majority of e46 guys lol

[elbert]

If I were to get a Porsche, I think I would get the 718 GT4 for track duty. No personal experience, but I think it would be easier to drive fast than a GT3.

[tnord]

You’re talking $6k-$12k e46 m3 to $100k+ 996/997 gt3. I wouldn’t say that’s a natural progression for vast majority of e46 guys lol

neither of those costs are accurate.

[Obioban]

neither of those costs are accurate.

Also, a large portion of e46 M3 owners could afford considerably more expensive cars-- as evidenced by the money spent on aftermarket parts often exceeding the value of the car :P

There's nothing between (price wise) the e46M and GT3 that tempts me.
(GT4 also temps me, but it's pricier than the GT3 that would want (997).

[tnord]

especially with yours, there's probably nothing below a GT car that's much of a performance improvement. I'm a bit odd, as I don't want that much performance and don't have much interest in the hyper performance of modern cars.

"slow" cars driven fast are more fun than fast cars driven slow and all that. of course, I'm a guy that raced miatas, and would love to get another e28 or maybe an e34 as the daily beater. i'm also a guy that's attracted to a good deal, and the 996 seems like a good buy right now. 997.1 looks better, but the costs of them start to get beyond what i can justify for a 2nd fun car.

[Obioban]

especially with yours, there's probably nothing below a GT car that's much of a performance improvement. I'm a bit odd, as I don't want that much performance and don't have much interest in the hyper performance of modern cars.

I agree a lot! It's not actually the pace of the GT cars that appeals to me-- it's the precision (ball joints instead of bushings, etc), engine dynamics, and weight, and feel of the GT cars that appeals to me. That's largely why I prefer the 997 GT3 to the 991 (though I haven't driven a GT 991, so I could be mislead by the base car)-- I don't care that it's faster, and I prefer the size, feel, and theoretically (in theory until I actually drive one) engine dynamics of the 997.
(which has also informed the way I've modded the coupe-- bushings have been made solid or sealed OE ball joints, #1 modding focus has been making it lighter and more communicative)

I think most modern cars have reached a point where they're actually being made significantly less fun by being made faster (which is also compounded by being larger, less feelsome, worse visibility, and turbo).

"slow" cars driven fast are more fun than fast cars driven slow and all that. of course, I'm a guy that raced miatas, and would love to get another e28 or maybe an e34 as the daily beater. i'm also a guy that's attracted to a good deal, and the 996 seems like a good buy right now. 997.1 looks better, but the costs of them start to get beyond what i can justify for a 2nd fun car.

You should drive an e39 530i manual. Significantly better steering than the e28 or e34, still light for a comfortable car (3450 with the spare tire and jack in-- so 20 lbs more than a e34 525i), awesome chassis, interior, comfort, reasonably modern safey and tech (e.g. has head protection airbags and bluetooth, but not any of the annoying stuff that interferes with or distracts from actually driving the car). Mostly, though, it has better feel-- how often is that the result of going with the newer car? Best all around car ever made at any price, IMO.
(because of reticulating ball steering in the 28/39 but R&P in the 6 cylinder e39)

So long as the car is fully depreciated, it kind of doesn't matter what the purchase price is, long term-- you should get it back when you sell (or more, if you find something on the rise).

[tnord]

I agree a lot! It's not actually the pace of the GT cars that appeals to me-- it's the precision (ball joints instead of bushings, etc), engine dynamics, and weight, and feel of the GT cars that appeals to me. That's largely why I prefer the 997 GT3 to the 991 (though I haven't driven a GT 991, so I could be mislead by the base car)-- I don't care that it's faster, and I prefer the size, feel, and theoretically (in theory until I actually drive one) engine dynamics of the 997.
(which has also informed the way I've modded the coupe-- bushings have been made solid or sealed OE ball joints, #1 modding focus has been making it lighter and more communicative)

I think most modern cars have reached a point where they're actually being made significantly less fun by being made faster (which is also compounded by being larger, less feelsome, worse visibility, and turbo).

I'm kinda hoping I can make a "GT Lite" car during the course of maintenance for the exact purpose you outline. sharpen the edges if you will, OE+ and all that. I've never driven a GT car so I have the benefit of not knowing what I'm missing. I think the 996 GT3 can be had for ~$60-$70k, which isn't going to happen with my retirement goals. But $25k for a non-GT 996 is doable. Yes I know, factor in depreciation/appreciation and modification costs of each and it might wash out. I've already tried that approach to acquire the last of the manual transmission F-cars as an "investment," but she's not buying it.

I guess I kinda see the 996 as the one chance I'll have to own a 911 and see what it's all about.

You should drive an e39 530i manual. Significantly better steering than the e28 or e34, still light for a comfortable car (3450 with the spare tire and jack in-- so 20 lbs more than a e34 525i), awesome chassis, interior, comfort, reasonably modern safey and tech (e.g. has head protection airbags and bluetooth, but not any of the annoying stuff that interferes with or distracts from actually driving the car). Mostly, though, it has better feel-- how often is that the result of going with the newer car? Best all around car ever made at any price, IMO.
(because of reticulating ball steering in the 28/39 but R&P in the 6 cylinder e39)

So long as the car is fully depreciated, it kind of doesn't matter what the purchase price is, long term-- you should get it back when you sell (or more, if you find something on the rise).

I had an E39 525 as a daily for maybe 5 years. Even as a base model automatic, that was leaking from everywhere and I had to work way too much on, I really liked it and looked for a 530 with a manual, or even a 540 but ended up with the 2006 330 I have now instead. For some reason I kinda want to do a S52 swap into one of the later E34s. I bought a 230k mile 535i in college for $2500 and I should have kept it. It was kind of a big boat of a thing but was very engaging to drive.

My old baseball coach had an E34 540 he used to have me detail and let me take to prom, which started my affinity for BMW. He later traded it in for a Laguna E46 M3 that I was infatuated with and led to my eventual ownership of my own E46 M3. In short, as with most of us, we're just buying up the cars we wanted as kids but couldn't have.

I have a line on an E39 M5 that may throw all of this out the window. Though I kinda hate to make that my daily.

[Steve]

tnord

Go with a 996 C4S and convert it to 2wd. I don't think you'll lose a dime on a C4S, in fact, they've been trending up in value here recently. While you may not love the front end, the rear 3/4 view is one of the best of any 911. As an added bonus, they all have a full leather interior, which makes the 996 a much nicer place to be compared to the plastic paradise of the base cars.

[Jevi Javi]

me want GT4 RS....

[Daniel]

I was thinking I'd get a 997 (peak GT3 for me) for a long time, but I'm kind of off it now. My M3 is at 997 GT3 weight, 997 GT3 horse power
The GT3 driving experience is better. But, for me at least, I don't believe the net experience is better.

Curious what your car dyno'd at?

[usdmej]

GT3 is a little too similar to a heavily modded E46 M3 to be worth the effort of selling one to buy the other imo

I'd like to someday get into an NA1 NSX but it looks like the market has left the stratosphere on a remotely driveable one

[Obioban]

Curious what your car dyno'd at?

352 rwhp (SAE dynojet).

Stock cars dyno around 280-285 SAE dynojet. So, average that to 282.5. If 333 crank is 282.5 wheel, then 352 wheel is 415 crank... which, amusingly, is identical to stock 997.1 GT3.

[Geoff.T]

curious if you could elaborate on this more? just that the 911 is lighter and has more mid-range than the M3 so it feels faster without really going all that fast? I've test driven two 911s, one C2 that seemed like a bucket of bolts, and another decent one but it was a C4. I'm torn between getting the C4S and ripping out the AWD gear just to get the turbo body, or saving the $10k and just getting the 996.1 in a good spec. I actually liked the C4 better than the C2 I drove, probably just because it was in better shape, but I didn't find it quite as exciting to drive as my M3. And that was back when my M3 was basically bone stock. Although it was a dealer car so I was being fairly nice to it, and I had a 250lb passenger as well.

I'm not suggesting that the 996 interior falls apart, just that how the materials look, and to the touch, didn't seem as nice. that center stack of hard plastic kinda kills it. is your C2 bone stock? curious what you're seeing as operating costs. the wife thinks I'm mad for considering another toy, but it just seems like a fun car to mess around with that's not going to get any cheaper.

need to go drive a good one to really make a decision.

My 996 is stock other than Eibach springs and Bilstein sports. It just hit 50k miles. The low end and mid range just feels better to me than my E46. It's nice to have power below 4k RPM and it isn't necessary to redline it in order to get it moving. The steering feels lighter than my E46 but still accurate. Operating cost have been low so far. The only repair outside of maintenance so far has been a air/oil separator failure. I replaced it with a stock AOS but I'll probably revisit that again with a motorsport part. I'd like to take it the the track every once and a while so the motorsport AOS will help prevent a smoke screen from coming out of my exhaust after some heavy cornering. That'll be addressed when a get the IMS solution done in the next few months.

I think you like how the C4 feels because the steering feel is similar to how a BMW feels. Initially, I preferred the AWD car as well. They have way more steering feel which gives the driver more confidence. Before I got my 996, I had the opportunity to track a few C2s and GT3s. Initially, it felt like the car wanted to understeer on turn in. I found if I slowed my hands down on turn in, and learned to trust the car, it turned in no problem. I was also able to get on throttle sooner than I could in my E46 which felt rewarding.

Aesthetically, the E46 has the nicer interior IMO. It kill me that the soft touch mares so easy, my titanium trim paint is shrinking and cracking, and before I refinished my pillar trim, I would get distracting on track when I'd catch the pillar trim fabric flapping around. The 996 interior is very basic and German. Everything is laid out well. The longer I sit in it, the greater appreciation I have for oval shapes LOL. It's a very minimalist interior in comparison to modern cars which I like. Mind you, I daily drive a 2020 F-150 Lariat Super Crew with all sorts of tech so the 996 is a nice escape from my rolling office. If the 996 will be your only car, I can see how the interior isn't as appealing as a 997 or newer 911. It's really just an update of an air cooled 911's interior. There is nothing innovative or modern present.

I like the idea of the C4S with a 2wd conversion. I, like you, love the turbo body. For the prices the C4S are climbing to though, I would consider just going with a turbo at that point. One thing to note, AWD Porsches love to go through front wheel bearings. They generally last 30k-60k miles. So you may want to inquire if they've been replaced. They don't necessarily make noise when they're bad. Instead, they can just cause one of the front brakes to drag.

If you know someone with a 996, ask them to borrow it for a weekend. It's not the type of car that anyone can just jump in and be fast. You won't be able to decide if you like it or not with one test drive. The driving dynamics are too different from what you're probably use to. If you do decide you like it, you won't want to go back.