What would a modern day E46 M3 CSL look like out of the factory?

[cliptheapex]

Assuming that emission and safety regulations were not a factor, what would a E46 M3 CSL build look like if it came out of the factory today and still kept with the spirit of the original E46 M3?

I would love to see a high revving naturally aspirated inline 6 engine that redlines to 9k similar to a GT3. I would like to see how much hp/tq BMW would be able to crank out of a NA inline 6, similar to what Porsche has done over the years with their flat 6.

Looks wise it would probably be similar in size to the M2 but with a more aggressive roof line and slightly angular lines. Unlike the M2 I would like to have it weighing below 3,200 lbs.

Thoughts??

[Tbonem3]

Wake up, you've got a zoom meeting soon

[Sharocks]

They won't make it and the M2 is the closest thing we have. Cost vs. ROI for them at this point.

Aftermarket? Sure, it's been done more than a few times. It's costly but for NA nerds it's the way.

Probs looking at right under 100k with the car purchased in that. All new parts obviously.

[Altaran]

Sorry it's just not possible, here's why:

Porsche increased power by also increasing displacement. 4.0L in the GT3, even 4.2 in the GTE spec RSR. While the concept of a 4.0L NA inline 6 sounds good, it would be too heavy and slow responding by comparison. Also much too long to fit in any BMW Chassis. If you stick with 3.2, you will just not get close to Porsche power.

On motor side, the best hope is that they put a NA flat plane V8 in an M2 chassis. But that too is a distant dream from times long passed.

Also look at the design of the new M3/M4. No matter how good the motor, it's just ugly.

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[FBloggs]

Well, I think it would be a NIB E46 M3 CSL.
At least for those of us with some miles on us.

[Obioban]

This would not work as a special edition, but here's what BMW could make as a 3 series if they actually cared anymore....
The i3 is $45,000 with a carbon chassis and lightweight seats/body panels. It weights <2800 lbs (BEV) and they state they make a profit on every car they sell. It is ~the same size as a 3 series (more passenger space than a 3 series).

Take the i3 chassis tech. Subtract the battery (800 lbs) and EV drivetrain (200 lbs). Add an updated N52 (326 lbs when it was on sale, and sold in trims up to 282hp NA) it's old (N52) manual (~80 lb) and diff (~60 lbs). Add another 100 lbs for exhaust, driveshaft, etc.

You end up with a NA 3 series sized car that's ~2350 lbs and ~300 hp. It would be cheaper to produce than the i3 (which is sold at a profit for $45,000, with an EV drivetrain that is significantly more expensive than the ICEV drivetrain I've detailed). They CAN produce that in volume, as outside of the USA the i3 is selling >50% as many cars as 3 series (and increasing every year). It would be more efficient and make less emissions than any of their turbo BS, because it weights 1000 less than any of their turbo cars. It would be AMAZING to drive. It would also be low upkeep (less weight means less responsibility for brakes, bushings, etc) and cheap to maintain (N52 was the base/cheap car engine in their line for years). Less weight = less tire width = huge gains in MPG without compromising dynamic and lower tire costs.

The M or CSL version of this could trade bushing for bearings, add some fender flares and wider tires, and use a more hardcore engine than the N52.

Without question, this would immediately reestablish BMW's reputation for leading in sport sedans and making the ultimate driving machine. It would improve their corporate fuel economy average. It would reduce emissions. It would make enthusiasts care and push the brand again, raising the desirably of Xwhatevers (as Porsche sports cars do for their SUVs and crossovers).

But, BMW has long since stopped caring.

[SteelGreyM]

This would not work as a special edition, but here's what BMW could make as a 3 series if they actually cared anymore....
The i3 is $45,000 with a carbon chassis and lightweight seats/body panels. It weights
Take the i3 chassis tech. Subtract the battery (800 lbs) and EV drivetrain (200 lbs). Add an updated N52 (326 lbs when it was on sale, and sold in trims up to 292hp NA) it's old (N52) manual (~80 lb) and diff (~60 lbs). Add another 100 lbs for exhaust, driveshaft, etc.

You end up with a NA 3 series sized car that's ~2350 lbs and ~300 hp. It would be cheaper to produce than the i3 (which is sold at a profit for $45,000, with an EV drivetrain that is significantly more expensive than the ICEV drivetrain I've detailed). They CAN produce that in volume, as outside of the USA the i3 is selling >50% as many cars as 3 series (and increasing every year). It would be more efficient and make less emissions than any of their turbo BS, because it weights 1000 less than any of their turbo cars. It would be AMAZING to drive. It would also be low upkeep (less weight means less responsibility for brakes, bushings, etc) and cheap to maintain (N52 was the base/cheap car engine in their line for years).

The CSL version of this could trade bushing for bearings and use a more hardcore engine than the N52.

But, BMW has long since stopped caring.

Yeah that sounds great but BMW doesn’t care about driving enthusiasts. All they care about is money maximizing. The M3 is just a “teenager” car now IMO. All looks. A monkey with a wrench could tune it (just turn up boost) and boom there you have it. A car that’ll go straight fast and pop and burble. So cool...

I’m imaging your concept (carbon shell) with some crazy 4.0 9k redline NA engine to compete with the GT3. Just an wide body track monster. Racecar for the road. BMW has nothing to compete with the gt3. Not even close.

[rbg]

Yep there is no market for those cars. All non enthusiast friends of mine are happy with new Bmw. They like the size, comfort, tech, steering... so I guess that will never happening. Did you see that concept of the bat mobile bmw recently made? That’s as far as they could go to honor the legend and not a production car so far.

[Duck360198]

The CSL is as pure of a car as you’re gonna get from BMW. CRT? M3 GTS? M4 GTS? Not even close to the same ballpark IMO. Now not all CSLs are created equal as you could get it loaded up at no additional charge, but to find one in an ideal spec with no options you have one of the most perfect modern day sports cars out there (depending on where you stand with SMG). Again, my opinion of course.

There’s no way BMW will make anything remotely close to the CSL today. Putting CSL on anything BMW at this point would be an absolute insult to the CSL namesake.

gonna be interesting to see where CSL values go. Can’t wait to watch.

[bigjae46]

Yeah...did you see the new G8X?

The only BMW I kinda like is the M2. The others are nice cars to drive. That’s it.

You get to see a modern CSL - CS and comp versions.


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[T.J.]

I would go for an M2 CS plus some Lightweight treatment and a S65B44 (4.4L, 450hp s65 from GTS)

[Mike RT4]

This would not work as a special edition, but here's what BMW could make as a 3 series if they actually cared anymore....
The i3 is $45,000 with a carbon chassis and lightweight seats/body panels. It weights <2800 lbs (BEV) and they state they make a profit on every car they sell. It is ~the same size as a 3 series (more passenger space than a 3 series).

Take the i3 chassis tech. Subtract the battery (800 lbs) and EV drivetrain (200 lbs). Add an updated N52 (326 lbs when it was on sale, and sold in trims up to 282hp NA) it's old (N52) manual (~80 lb) and diff (~60 lbs). Add another 100 lbs for exhaust, driveshaft, etc.

You end up with a NA 3 series sized car that's ~2350 lbs and ~300 hp. It would be cheaper to produce than the i3 (which is sold at a profit for $45,000, with an EV drivetrain that is significantly more expensive than the ICEV drivetrain I've detailed). They CAN produce that in volume, as outside of the USA the i3 is selling >50% as many cars as 3 series (and increasing every year). It would be more efficient and make less emissions than any of their turbo BS, because it weights 1000 less than any of their turbo cars. It would be AMAZING to drive. It would also be low upkeep (less weight means less responsibility for brakes, bushings, etc) and cheap to maintain (N52 was the base/cheap car engine in their line for years). Less weight = less tire width = huge gains in MPG without compromising dynamic and lower tire costs.

The M or CSL version of this could trade bushing for bearings, add some fender flares and wider tires, and use a more hardcore engine than the N52.

Without question, this would immediately reestablish BMW's reputation for leading in sport sedans and making the ultimate driving machine. It would improve their corporate fuel economy average. It would reduce emissions. It would make enthusiasts care and push the brand again, raising the desirably of Xwhatevers (as Porsche sports cars do for their SUVs and crossovers).

But, BMW has long since stopped caring.

I fully agree that BMW has long since given up caring about the enthusiasts that love the brand or even their own heritage and have sold their souls to the marketing devil (which is now what M stands for). Because of the route that they have taken with the M brand, they have basically painted themselves into a corner along with almost every other manufacturer, where they believe that the only way to sell performance cars is to have the succeeding model be ever more powerful than it's predecessor and screw the dynamic sacrifices. Going down this rabbit hole just continues to add more and more weight from extra cooling and required chassis strengthening (the G8x is now almost 200kg heavier than the preceding model and despite its 50bhp increase in power has only an alleged 4bhp better power to weight, which could easily have been achieved with a weight lowering exercise (which would have also improved the chassis dynamics, braking performance etc).

It needs someone brave to make a stand and stop this power struggle and instead target improvements to power to weight. I fully understand that it won't ever happen, but if Porsche can build a fully emission compliant NA engine, then so can BMW. It doesn't have to rev to the moon, but it does have to be full of character and offer great response. If I held the reins at BMW M division (we can all dream), it would be a 4 litre inline six, with ultra high compression using the same lean-burn technology as the new Maserati engine and it would be of all-aluminium construction with Koeniggsegg free valve tech (no camshafts). 8000rpm (more if the emissions targets could take it) 400-450ish bhp (what-ever it ended up at with the full emission compliancy) and then put that in the light chassis with a target weight of 1400kg wet using as much carbon / alloy technolgy innovation as possible (not as sales gimmicks, but as and where needed to achieve a goal. It would run 265/35 x 18 tyres all round on 9.5" rims as standard and 265/30 x 19 would be a COST option. The brakes would be the 356mm x 36mm (two piece) front with a suitable 6-pot monobloc calliper with a 343 x 32mm on the back. The car would be able to be bought with a manual or DCT in all regions. Recaro CS would the standard seat with the option of a half cage and rear seat deletion, along with a comfort option being available. It would have a proper plated diff with various final drive options available (with after purchase installation required in those regions that had more strict emission legislative requirements). There would be factory aero upgrades available (BGWs, vented fenders, adjustable splitters and other genuinely go-faster parts). All the electronic "convenience" gimmicks that go in to the current cars would be optional extras (apart from electric windows and mirrors) .

[Obioban]

I fully agree that BMW has long since given up caring about the enthusiasts that love the brand or even their own heritage and have sold their souls to the marketing devil (which is now what M stands for). Because of the route that they have taken with the M brand, they have basically painted themselves into a corner along with almost every other manufacturer, where they believe that the only way to sell performance cars is to have the succeeding model be ever more powerful than it's predecessor and screw the dynamic sacrifices. Going down this rabbit hole just continues to add more and more weight from extra cooling and required chassis strengthening (the G8x is now almost 200kg heavier than the preceding model and despite its 50bhp increase in power has only an alleged 4bhp better power to weight, which could easily have been achieved with a weight lowering exercise (which would have also improved the chassis dynamics, braking performance etc).

It needs someone brave to make a stand and stop this power struggle and instead target improvements to power to weight. I fully understand that it won't ever happen, but if Porsche can build a fully emission compliant NA engine, then so can BMW. It doesn't have to rev to the moon, but it does have to be full of character and offer great response. If I held the reins at BMW M division (we can all dream), it would be a 4 litre inline six, with ultra high compression using the same lean-burn technology as the new Maserati engine and it would be of all-aluminium construction with Koeniggsegg free valve tech (no camshafts). 8000rpm (more if the emissions targets could take it) 400-450ish bhp (what-ever it ended up at with the full emission compliancy) and then put that in the light chassis with a target weight of 1400kg wet using as much carbon / alloy technolgy innovation as possible (not as sales gimmicks, but as and where needed to achieve a goal. It would run 265/35 x 18 tyres all round on 9.5" rims as standard and 265/30 x 19 would be a COST option. The brakes would be the 356mm x 36mm (two piece) front with a suitable 6-pot monobloc calliper with a 343 x 32mm on the back. The car would be able to be bought with a manual or DCT in all regions. Recaro CS would the standard seat with the option of a half cage and rear seat deletion, along with a comfort option being available. It would have a proper plated diff with various final drive options available (with after purchase installation required in those regions that had more strict emission legislative requirements). There would be factory aero upgrades available (BGWs, vented fenders, adjustable splitters and other genuinely go-faster parts). All the electronic "convenience" gimmicks that go in to the current cars would be optional extras (apart from electric windows and mirrors) .

Have you seen Gordan Murrary upcoming T43?

<1900 lbs. Will fit tall people. Will have amazing steering.

I will be buying one.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...JYb3pKbpfT70vY

[heinzboehmer]

Have you seen Gordan Murrary upcoming T43?

<1900 lbs. Will fit tall people. Will have amazing steering.

I will be buying one.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...JYb3pKbpfT70vY

Thought you hated turbos though? That article mentions a Ford-sourced turbocharged three-cylinder. Hmm, S54 swap?

[Obioban]

Thought you hated turbos though? That article mentions a Ford-sourced turbocharged three-cylinder. Hmm, S54 swap?

I do hate turbos. A lot.

But, as a package, there will never be a car better suited to my needs. <1900 lbs, 6mt, going to have better steering than any attainable car ever, and sized to fit tall people.

I'm pretty confident that whatever engine it comes with, there won't be room for anything larger. Murray is absurdly efficient with his packaging. If a 3 comes with it, it's a safe bet there isn't space for a 4.

... I do hope before it comes out he changes to using something like NA 4 from the current miata. The turbos are the only thing I don't like about this car, so I'd love for them to get addressed.

But, <1900 lbs, 6mt, and Gordon Murray levels of feel/handling can't be ignored (for me).