Best leather cleaner / conditioner?

[repoman89]

This reminds me of the audio forums where people are adamant they can hear the difference between cables.

No, it really couldn’t be less like that. Seems that you missed the test above that clearly shows the topcoat is permeable.

[bmw]

No, it really couldn’t be less like that. Seems that you missed the test above that clearly shows the topcoat is permeable.

On the contrary, it is exactly like that. You have positive results on something you have paid $$ for. You are happily reinforced in your conviction it worked for you and nothing is going to change your mind. Yet you have no way of proving that you would not have had the same results simply by garaging your car and regular cleaning of your leather with a PH neutral product.

I have a garage full of cars with leather seats that look and feel straight off the showroom floor, which have never been conditioned or slathered in an expensive 90% water solution for 72hrs. My experience is valid as well, but neither of us have a controlled test.

Saturating the leather from above and feeling it slightly damp a day later proves nothing regarding efficacy of the products in question.

[repoman89]

On the contrary, it is exactly like that. You have positive results on something you have paid $$ for. You are happily reinforced in your conviction it worked for you and nothing is going to change your mind. Every unsupported opinion that supports your argument adds to your conviction.

I have a garage full of cars with leather seats that look and feel straight off the showroom floor, which have never been conditioned or slathered in an expensive 90% water solution for 72hrs. My experience is valid as well, but neither of us have a controlled test.

Saturating the leather from above and feeling it slightly damp a day later proves nothing regarding efficacy of the products in question.

Moving the goalposts I see. Before you said it was impermeable, now it’s ineffective when that was proven incorrect. Both statements based on nothing but your feels. Where have I seen that type of logic before ...

I have no problem admitting when I pay for something that sucks, and leatherique costs ~pocket change. Why would I care about defending it if it doesn’t work? It significantly improved the condition of the seats on my 01 M5 that lived 15 years in the sun, so I like it. I reapplied it three times to the driver seat because it kept soaking in. Some measly 50 bucks doesn’t matter to me and doesn’t inform my opinions, results do.

[bmw]

Moving the goalposts I see. Before you said it was impermeable, now it’s ineffective when that was proven incorrect. Both statements based on nothing but your feels. Where have I seen that type of logic before ...

This is specifically what I said: "I'm not claiming clear coated leather it is 100% impervious, but a 3 day treatment on a non-porous clear coat, probably less than 1% of the product is absorbed."

It's a fact that modern (last 20yrs+) car leather is coated with a non-porous polyurethane clear coat. However you like to spend your time attempting to condition something underneath that is up to you.

A microfiber towel and a PH neutral cleaner is the best "leather cleaner / conditioner" for these cars.

[repoman89]

This is specifically what I said: "I'm not claiming clear coated leather it is 100% impervious, but a 3 day treatment on a non-porous clear coat, probably less than 1% of the product is absorbed."

It's a fact that modern (last 20yrs+) car leather is coated with a non-porous polyurethane clear coat. However you like to spend your time attempting to condition something underneath that is up to you.

A microfiber towel and a PH neutral cleaner is the best "leather cleaner / conditioner" for these cars.

Yeah, it’s not less than 1% or anywhere close to that low. I’ll take results over guesses.

[Inizes]

Time for Obi to cut another piece of scrap, measure (by weight maybe?) how much leatherique he puts on the leather. Wait 3 days, then see how much heavier the leather is. But of course nature isn’t allowed to evaporate any water.

[bmw]

Yeah, it’s not less than 1% or anywhere close to that low. I’ll take results over guesses.

What percentage is it? How did you measure the results?

[repoman89]

What percentage is it? How did you measure the results?

1. Start with greying dull leather on driver seat bolster and bottom
2. Apply a couple ounces product to the seat
3. Come back a day later to find product is almost entirely gone around dull areas, apply again
4. Come back a day later to find it gone again, apply again
5. Come back a day later to find it only partly absorbed
6. Wipe it down and enjoy

I would say well over 50% was absorbed. I did not measure it, I do enough science at my day job. 1% is laughable though based on my experience.

[TexaZ3]

Soapy water / diluted simple green


elbow grease

This. The best cleaner. APC and nice soft brush. Lots of damp rugs.
For conditioner, Le Tech.

[TexaZ3]

We don't have leather, we have top coat. Even if you were touching the leather, I don't see how something with natural ingredients, that's very diluted, would pose a problem?

That is exactly right, and all the fancy products that everyone is advertising, is just that - a diluted APC with some fancy ingredient and a cool name.

To illustrate - I have restored a leather in one particularly neglected car recently (E92 M3 - so BMW leather), and I have not used anything - and I mean - anything, but Simple Green diluted 50% with plain water and a freaking toothbrush with bunch of microfiber towels. The leather looks, feels, and smells like new. And will for a long time (cause I have done this before many times). Now to the pictures.

The top piece of the side bolster on the driver's seat is cleaned with some toothbrush and diluted APC. Note how dirty it was before - the car and leather have not been cleaned since 2008. Not only the leather comes super clean, and matt as it should be, the threads are getting back their lighter color as well:

ugAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

Second example - the thigh support is half cleaned with same method; the rest of the seat not.

bQAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

This is how it looks while you are cleaning it - thread with toothbrush, or any other stiffer brush, leather surface with softer, boar-hair brush.

6gAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

And a few before and after.

Before:

QwAAAgGr1-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

After:

6QAAAgGr1-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

ZYAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

Y4AAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

hYAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

FYAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

8oAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

Entire cushion done (the back is not):

6IAAAgO0V-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

So, in a nutshell, you can use whatever you freaking want, and willing to pay for. APC works just as well if not better with top coated "leather".

[TexaZ3]

I started an experiment yesterday, because this conversation keeps coming up. This is pretty easy for anyone to replicate at home, if they don't believe me.

I took a piece of never used, OE BMW leather (leftover from a hide I bought in ~2006). I made it into a coffee filter shape and secured it it using a random spring perch, with an inspection nipple poking through the bottom. I then slightly filled it with leatherique rejuvenator:



Today, inspecting the nipple from below, it is visibly damp (and you can feel/smell the leatherique) on the rough side of the leather:



I don't believe there's any explanation for this other than the leatherique going through the top coat and leather, to the far side.

Obviously this is a fairly extreme example, as I left a trapped puddle of leatherique on top of the leather, but IMO it pretty conclusively shows that the top coat is meaningfully permeable.

Looking at the back of the hide - this is NOT what BMW uses on the seats. This is not top-coated leather (which BMW is), looks more like full grain aniline dyed product. This hide will permeate 100%.
I bet after you took it out and wiped clean and let it dry - it stained, or changed the color, too.

[yhp2009]

TexaZ3 Kudos that really does look superb
But I have to point out that your example is a one-time result. I dont think anyone doubts that Simple Green will clean your dirty leather seats thats been neglected. I think the question is whether it is good to use Simple green every 2 months year around for the next 10 yrs

[Obioban]

Looking at the back of the hide - this is NOT what BMW uses on the seats. This is not top-coated leather (which BMW is), looks more like full grain aniline dyed product. This hide will permeate 100%.
I bet after you took it out and wiped clean and let it dry - it stained, or changed the color, too.

I bought it from a bmw dealership, factory bmw imola hide.

[TexaZ3]

TexaZ3 Kudos that really does look superb
But I have to point out that your example is a one-time result. I dont think anyone doubts that Simple Green will clean your dirty leather seats thats been neglected. I think the question is whether it is good to use Simple green every 2 months year around for the next 10 yrs

Haha, if you get your seats so dirty you need to do this kind of cleaning every two months, you not worthy of having nice things.
And to answer your question - NOT a one time result. I have been doing this multiple times to many, many of my cars (some of which I own for over 15 years) and the seats still look new.

19-year old Cinnamon on a car that has 157K miles:
IMG_5751 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

16-year old black napa on a 115k mile car:
sgAAAgBhQ-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr


21-year old black napa on a 111k miles car:
qGAAAgDEyeA-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

20-year old black napa on a 117k miles car:
joAAAgK1g-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr
XoAAAgK1g-A-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

21 year old black napa (crappy e36 no less) on a 131K miles car:
AIAAAgDbieA-960 by Italian Horses, on Flickr

All my personal cars. All daily drivers. APC and water. Le Tech for conditioner. That's all I use for decades.

[Obioban]

Looking at the back of the hide - this is NOT what BMW uses on the seats. This is not top-coated leather (which BMW is), looks more like full grain aniline dyed product. This hide will permeate 100%.
I bet after you took it out and wiped clean and let it dry - it stained, or changed the color, too.

The back of the leather looks the same. See attached stock seat:



I'll pull the test bit out of the trash and use pristine clean on it tomorrow so we can see if there's a stain.