S54 Vanos post Beisan/DV Rebuild Timing Issue

[BL92]

Thank you again for the input

So I pulled it apart again today, as i didn't preload the hubs

Followed Sapote method this time, rotated the engine, pins line up, just wont drop
Can't tell if the pistons are bottomed out

[sapote]

Pin won't drop: for each cam, find out if it's too advance or too retard from the pin drop position.

With the hubs being pretensioned by the 2 bolts each, when the vanos was bolting down did you see the splined shafts were pushed in the hubs and the hubs rotated CCW?

[Slideways]

Thank you again for the input

So I pulled it apart again today, as i didn't preload the hubs

Followed Sapote method this time, rotated the engine, pins line up, just wont drop
Can't tell if the pistons are bottomed out

Yes, the pistons look bottomed out based on where the splined shafts are located in the hubs. Nudging the cams with the 24mm wrench will allow the pin to drop down fully. Seen it happen quite a few times where the pin won't drop down like that, but the timing was still good. There is sometimes a little play where the crank locking pin sits in the vibration damper and a hair of a degree off there will cause the cam tool pin not to drop through like it did before rotating the engine.

[sapote]

OP, tilt the bridge one way or the other so the pin drops in the hole, then tell us the gap of the bridge one leg off the head with the other leg on the head. Small gap means timing is fine.

[BL92]

Thank you, both methods worked to drop the pins,

under a 0.05mm gap on both sides with intake installed and exhaust installed, next will be vanos testing via Tool32 until i set up DIS

[sapote]

"under a 0.05mm gap on both sides with intake installed and exhaust installed"

It's more than perfect!

[BL92]

Thanks Sapote

Vanos test via Tool32

[bmwfnatic]

Thanks Sapote

Vanos test via Tool32

Timing seems off here, it would still pass if it were ran in DIS [-5. +5], but it's not amazing, enough so that I would consider opening things up again.

EVANOS FRUEH ISTWERT -> -3, should be 0.
EVANOS SPAET ISTWERT -> 56, should be 60.

AVANOS FRUEH ISTWERT -> -2, should be 0.
AVANOS SPAET ISTWERT -> 46, should be 48.

So you are between 3-4 degrees off on the intake side, and 2 degrees on the exhaust side.
I would like to note that I don't exactly know how adaptions would play here, clear them and then go on a long drive (1hr+) with varying load/rpm, some WOT, some cruising, not sure what it needs to fully adapt.
Perhaps it will show different results then, you can also check your adaptions, the easiest way without DIS is using the ECUworx tool.

[maupineda]

Read vamos adaptations after reset and drive, you may find large values.

adaptations are the offsets the ecu needs to apply to meet timing requests, but that assumes that the cams are timed correctly so that the cams can adjust to ECU demands.

the cams can rotate more than the 60/48 degrees. So is odd you cannot meet the max/min adjustment values. It seems you timed the engine correctly.

that said, I did the job recently to replace the diaphragm springs and had to retime the engine and the tool sat flush with zero gap.

[sapote]

Let’s look at exhaust max retard -48 to max advance 0 as example. Does this mean the piston bottomed on the cap = -48 degrees in ideal timing setting? I don’t think the pin dropping in the cam hole is at -48, as this gives zero margin for the piston to compensate for any timing setting error, considering the chain is not a solid rod between the crank and cams.

correction: -48 for max advance and 0 for max retard I meant to say.

[bmwfnatic]

Let’s look at exhaust max retard -48 to max advance 0 as example. Does this mean the piston bottomed on the cap = -48 degrees in ideal timing setting? I don’t think the pin dropping in the cam hole is at -48, as this gives zero margin for the piston to compensate for any timing setting error, considering the chain is not a solid rod between the crank and cams.

That is why it overcommands, -10 instead of 0, 75 instead of 60, to hit the mechanical end stops.

[sapote]

That is why it overcommands, -10 instead of 0, 75 instead of 60, to hit the mechanical end stops.

For a perfect timing setting engine, during operation I don't think the pistons touch the front caps.for max retarding the cams. Therefore, the max retard position of the cams corresponding to vanos pistons position somewhere a distance from touching the caps. Nobody in the right mind designed a closed loop control system that has the actuators, pistons in this case, hitting the wall in the operating range.

So if the bridge is off less than 0.05mm or 0.002", the pistons should have no problem of moving the cams to the desired timing position, and not hitting the caps.

[bmwfnatic]

For a perfect timing setting engine, during operation I don't think the pistons touch the front caps.for max retarding the cams. Therefore, the max retard position of the cams corresponding to vanos pistons position somewhere a distance from touching the caps. Nobody in the right mind designed a closed loop control system that has the actuators, pistons in this case, hitting the wall in the operating range.

So if the bridge is off less than 0.05mm or 0.002", the pistons should have no problem of moving the cams to the desired timing position, and not hitting the caps.

Setting bridge (black with holes and removeable pins) has pins at a 1-2 degree angle, likely to compensate for chain slack, I don’t know I didn’t design this engine…

You are supposed to use the “checker” tool to verify timing, which is at a perfect 90 and has the pin integrated on one side, you can flip it around intake exhaust doesn’t matter because it is prefect 90, that is why the “setter” tool has A and E written on there, because the holes are angled.

If the setter sits flush after rotating the engine, the checker will be way off, like 2mm or more from the head. Timing will not be correct.

I think if installing the vanos your way with torquing the bolts before you ever turning the engine, it would be best to use a bridge with true 90 pins, and not the original setter tool, which is clearly trying to compensate for something.

[sapote]

I think if installing the vanos your way with torquing the bolts before you ever turning the engine, it would be best to use a bridge with true 90 pins, and not the original setter tool, which is clearly trying to compensate for something.

Of course the hub bolts must be torqued before the crank can be turn. If not the hub will turn relative to the sprocket and all timing will be off. My method is the same as TIS and Beisan except that I insert the shafts into the hubs before attaching the vanos to the shafts.

[BL92]

Thanks again for the advice, i reset adaptions, and only done some driving around the block at low speeds

i removed the vanos again whilst i was doing the valve clearances, set up the timing bridge again, didn't touch the hubs, replaced the vanos gasket and reinstalled

Just done the vanos test again in Tool32 for a back to back result and its alot better, thanks everyone, i will still do a vanos test in DIS once i get it setup, i have purchased it from Mario