TTV's S54 Supalite Flywheel

[Sharocks]

Dual mass flywheels can't be resurfaced meaning they shouldn't be reused. That's more $$$. They're inherently more expensive.

Dual mass flywheels can definitely be resurfaced.

Jed Pineda who owns Einhorn Industries makes lightened dual mass flywheels for the E39 M5 using stock flywheels.

I've been in talks with him to make a set of the M3 but he doesn't see the point since the M3 naturally revs much faster than an M5.

[Arith2]

If chatter is a concern to you, then a single mass and lightweight flywheel are not for you. End of story. Don't even peak your interest. Ever. For any brand. There is no magical shape that stops chatter. They ALL chatter.

That being said, I get some chatter below 2k rpm and after it's fine. I use MT90 which I think alleviates it a decent amount. My chatter doesn't really occur until the clutch is starting to engage. My flywheel is 11.5lbs. The vibrations are from like 1,100 to 1,600 mostly. It really caught me off guard because everyone says the chatter at idle. Mine doesn't really.

The advantage of a single mass over a dual mass is more clutch predictability and response times. The E46 M3 has a power response that is almost unmatched. Even a 991 GT3 has a slower throttle response. Eliminating the dual mass, which has a spring in it to dampen, will further improve that response. Mix this with a few other mods and it'll really tighten the car up more. The biggest advantage, in my opinion, is single mass flywheel don't separate. They're one piece, not two. When a dual mass breaks, it chatters horribly. Dual mass flywheels can't be resurfaced meaning they shouldn't be reused. That's more $$$. They're inherently more expensive.

Advantage of a dual mass, it helps dampen torsional vibrations, which the S54 has the most of. A torsional vibration is uneven twisting of the crank. The longer the crank, the more torsional vibrations. The other is comfort.

[Epoustouflant]

Hi,

I am also not a big fan of Alu for flywheel.

My track set up is SMF weight only 7.5pounds and its made form Chromoly never aluminum...(its not
used in S54 engine.)

TTV looks good but nothing to dampen the lash from the transmission which is going to the
crankshaft...

Regards,
Anri

Good to hear. I believe TTV has a clutch offering as well. Might be available with the kit. I’ll ask.

[bjz!]

There's a reason we don't like rattling noises at idle in neutral.

It hides the real scary rattling at idle aka vanos.

LOL

Raise the idle, lol.

[Anri]

There is no engineering benefits to using aluminum, it’s purely cost cutting.

Here’s an excerpt from discussions with Ben @ TTV:

Aluminium is 1/3^rd the weight of steel but its also 1/3^rd the strength, as such, you need 3 times as much of it.

Having 2 different materials bolted together is not ideal when the parts warm up and start to expand as the expansion rates are different putting components under stress, this is more important when you consider the starter ring gear is steel. Failure here could be catastrophic.

Motorsport teams will not use aluminium flywheels due to their inherent reliability risks, the steel used for the friction faces tend to be of lower quality and wear out quickly when used with modern drivetrain friction materials.

Hi,

I am also not a big fan of Alu for flywheel.

My track set up is SMF weight only 7.5pounds and its made form Chromoly never aluminum...(its not
used in S54 engine.)

TTV looks good but nothing to dampen the lash from the transmission which is going to the
crankshaft...

Regards,
Anri

[Slonik]

i had smf on my m3 with no chatter
and yes, i'm on dct now, also with smf, with almost to none chatter (they is no way to get "sprung hub" clutch on dct).

by the way, we have made about 1000 of aluminum flywheels already (mostly for VAGs), and all works great ;D

[Epoustouflant]

Could you elaborate? Most if not all the aluminium options use replaceable friction surfaces.

There is no engineering benefits to using aluminum, it’s purely cost cutting.

Here’s an excerpt from discussions with Ben @ TTV:

Aluminium is 1/3^rd the weight of steel but its also 1/3^rd the strength, as such, you need 3 times as much of it.

Having 2 different materials bolted together is not ideal when the parts warm up and start to expand as the expansion rates are different putting components under stress, this is more important when you consider the starter ring gear is steel. Failure here could be catastrophic.

Motorsport teams will not use aluminium flywheels due to their inherent reliability risks, the steel used for the friction faces tend to be of lower quality and wear out quickly when used with modern drivetrain friction materials.

[Anri]

FWIW, AASCO makes an E46 M3 flywheel which is 11lb (this one here is 5.3kg/11.7lb) and can be reduced to 10.5lb upon request. They're made to order and very high quality (used in many Porsche race cars as well) and last time I checked are under $400 and made in USA. You must contact them to order as it's not listed online.

As mentioned by others, the idle chatter is caused by the transmission and is unavoidable when using a SMF regardless of brand.

BBR,


One must understand the design of the transmission.

G420 started life on E34M5 Euro 3.8. The 3.8 its designed to be sold to
public with Dual Mass flywheel.

G420 design does not have internal Damper Springs to reduce chatter
because the G420 was design for cars with Dual Mass fly and the DMF
is basically the dampening spring.

Older E28M5, E34M5 3.5 came from the Factory with SMF. The E34M5
version was 11.5 pounds. When these transmission were under 100k miles with
regular oil change they never chatter. On one of my DD E24M6 I have
7.4 pounds fly wheel and 228mm set up. With my G260 and lumpy idle
I have almost zero chatter at +/-750rpm idle speed.

E34M5 does not have a Vanos system and the idle is extreme lumpy and
that only increases chatter and yet these transmission are very very
quite but as the milage increase the gears do ware out as any other
part on the car and they get little chatter at idle but that can be seen on
cars whit over 100k and poorly maintained. The trick is to mix MT90 with MTL
50-50 so that to cushion the gear chatter which is caused by the worn
out gears. This trick can be done on G420 but for those who are in
warm climates. I have tested and it works very very well straight MT-90
whit DMF but the car lives in So.Cal. and the warm up time is pretty
quick.

MT90 is not good for cold climates because it will cause the 3 piece
synchro to stick when shifting and will cause hard shifting.

During tune on the E24S54 I had some issues with ITBs and the idle
was extreme lumpy like the engine did not have vanos. Oh man this
G420 on idle was going lose its own guts on the ground !!! to a point
I said this is bad transmission....but ones the issues I had was fixed
the tranny is very quite with the DMF even driven straight for an hour
with anger.

S54 has Nasty harmonics and having SMF is only making the gear
lash chatter for the worst transferring the vibrations to the crankshaft.

At hi engine speed the gear box lash gets much less because all is
under load but still the lash goes thru harmonics in different loads
of rpms

I see not much gains for having SMF vs DMF I have installed a single
mass on S54 cars and its just nasty resonances and vibration at low
engine speed when on low gear. Yes with SMF it will rev little just little
better but the gains are neglected....


One may get clever by reducing machining the dual DMF but the issue
is that DMF can not be Balanced.

I see nothing wrong with brand new DMF.

Regards,
Anri

[BBRTuning]

It’s aluminum, a no-no.

Could you elaborate? Most if not all the aluminium options use replaceable friction surfaces.

[EthanolTurbo]

SMF sucks ass for street/daily driving, the chatter really does mask other more problematic noises. It's great for a track car though. You can reduce the chatter with different fluids but you're kind of chasing your tail at that point.

[Epoustouflant]

FWIW, AASCO makes an E46 M3 flywheel which is 11lb (this one here is 5.3kg/11.7lb) and can be reduced to 10.5lb upon request. They're made to order and very high quality (used in many Porsche race cars as well) and last time I checked are under $400 and made in USA. You must contact them to order as it's not listed online.

As mentioned by others, the idle chatter is caused by the transmission and is unavoidable when using a SMF regardless of brand.

It’s aluminum, a no-no.

[BBRTuning]

FWIW, AASCO makes an E46 M3 flywheel which is 11lb (this one here is 5.3kg/11.7lb) and can be reduced to 10.5lb upon request. They're made to order and very high quality (used in many Porsche race cars as well) and last time I checked are under $400 and made in USA. You must contact them to order as it's not listed online.

As mentioned by others, the idle chatter is caused by the transmission and is unavoidable when using a SMF regardless of brand.

[Epoustouflant]

mostly depends on clutch disc, rigid or sprung hub.

but gearbox condition make difference also. i had experience previously, when 3 cars on the same kit works silent and fourth make some noise after heating.

What are you doing! Get back in the shop 😂😂😂

Thanks for the input Mikhail.

[Sharocks]

This is a seasoned bunch. By that I mean when I went asking about SMF options, many had tried them or knew of collective experiences. Felt like a net negative outlook on here so 10 units seem like a steep hill. Folks use the terms chatter and transmission rattle interchangeably but many loath the gear lash noise inside the E46's Getrag 420g. It is indeed a noisy transmission when coupled with a SMF, worsening the lighter the flywheel gets.

There's a reason we don't like rattling noises at idle in neutral.

It hides the real scary rattling at idle aka vanos.

LOL

[Slonik]

It's not that bad - but there is some, there's no way around that with single mass.

mostly depends on clutch disc, rigid or sprung hub.

but gearbox condition make difference also. i had experience previously, when 3 cars on the same kit works silent and fourth make some noise after heating.