Anyone excited about the new csl?

[Jimbo's M]

I remember way back when the E9X came out how many were bashing Chris Bangle and his design. They were "Bangled", even though he did have a hand in the E46. AFAIC, "Bangled" cars look like Mona Lisa's compared to these monstrosities.

[Obioban]

Well take solace with the thought that this point in time is a direct result of our cars coming pretty close to achieving perfection. There was only one direction to travel and that was down. Most every brand has a brief point-in-time where they hit their apex moment and BMWs was longer than most. With that said, I'm going to drive the hell out of all these modern and semi-modern monsters that I can while I can because ICE won't be around forever due to EVs or the EPA.

I'd like some of the track rats on this forum to get one of the new M3/M4s out on the track and report back their honest thoughts. Would be neat.

Faster only means better on track if you’re racing, and then it only matters if you’re faster in class.

…. and faster only means better on the street if it it means the car is more fun to drive. IMO we’re well past that— faster has been making cars less fun to drive for a while now.

[oceansize]

Faster only means better on track if you’re racing, and then it only matters if you’re faster in class.

…. and faster only means better on the street if it it means the car is more fun to drive. IMO we’re well past that— faster has been making cars less fun to drive for a while now.

Dude I'm telling you a GT350 or Mach 1 is stupid fun on the street, I swear it is. Give one a try if you haven't already, it seems impossible that a car that heavy can have the grip it does, of course its on Sport Cup 2s which obviously help but still. I do wish the steering feel in sport mode was better and I also realize the fun might only last a short time but that's ok.

[maw1124]

Well take solace with the thought that this point in time is a direct result of our cars coming pretty close to achieving perfection. There was only one direction to travel and that was down. Most every brand has a brief point-in-time where they hit their apex moment…

I agree with this, and think that moment was ‘03-‘06. Almost all of my cars were built then, and IMO they all followed the last car (a ‘92 500E Benz Porsche Collabo) by about 10 years. That car showed the market, then everyone raced to achieve it — high strung, naturally aspirated (or supercharged) German tuners — instant over the top engine and transmission response and handling. Since then, more or less owing to the CAFE regulations, those cars are dead. They only way you get close is with turbo lag, which defeats the point.

I was driving my buddy’s M340i the other day, struggling to keep it in the hot zone and find a neck snapping moment. I couldn’t. He told me I was driving the car harder than he does, which I couldn’t believe. I stopped, drove the car sedately home and told him to go get a tune. I’ll keep my E46M, thank you very much. My other buddy’s E9XM Supercharged Sedan is a slightly different story, but it’s no better than my ‘06 S55 Kompressor, just a bit smaller and lighter (less than you might think) — oh and MUCH less torquey.

’03-‘06 was peak Audi, BMW and MB AMG if you ask me. After that, more performance came at the expense of reliability. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

maw

[IamFODI]

[thread moved to Other BMWs section]

3640 lbs... More like CSXL

🤣

10/10, sir.

I wonder if anyone from BMW reads these threads. One can hope!

They do.

Sadly for us, people are buying these monstrosities as fast as BMW can make them, and they're a damn sight more profitable than a real enthusiast special would be. As long as that's the case, threads like this will have little leverage.

[ridebikes]

They do.

Sadly for us, people are buying these monstrosities as fast as BMW can make them, and they're a damn sight more profitable than a real enthusiast special would be. As long as that's the case, threads like this will have little leverage.

yes, I think this is key. Sure enthusiasts congregate and say they'd buy a perfect spec car. But history shows they are low volume sellers at best AND the simple fact is "true" car enthusiasts (generally) buy one car at a time like any other buyer.

Thus, it's easier just to make MORE everything.... horsepower, top speed, and sadly weight to appeal to the broadest group of people that aren't going to pour over Evo magazine reviews about steering feel or scrub angle.

Add in Insta culture, and loud (in every respect) = engagement = sales

2003-06 really was a golden era.

[Obioban]

E46 also was the best selling M3 of all time…

[wahsm]

Faster only means better on track if you’re racing, and then it only matters if you’re faster in class.

…. and faster only means better on the street if it it means the car is more fun to drive. IMO we’re well past that— faster has been making cars less fun to drive for a while now.

Agree on we are well beyond the point of what makes a fun to drive car on the street. Only way you can really enjoy 95% of the sports or performance cars these days is on a track.

[bmw]

Well take solace with the thought that this point in time is a direct result of our cars coming pretty close to achieving perfection. There was only one direction to travel and that was down. Most every brand has a brief point-in-time where they hit their apex moment and BMWs was longer than most.

Is this a universal truth? I think the scenario is specific to BMW.
For example, Audi has continued to produce good, attractive, and desirable cars for the last decade+
Another example, Porsche, besides people complaining about ever increasing pricing, people still rabidly seek out GT3s and 992s. Seem to just keep on getting better, even if you're a fan of the older ones.
And across the industry, Mazda, Kia, etc. are all making all around better cars these days.

But BMW, BMW purposely decided to fuck their established customer base and turn away from the core values of what made their success. At the executive level, they decided to abandon making the "ultimate driving machine", then wallowed with some ambiguous marketing campaign about "Joy", then decided to produce as many mediocre models and as many sub-variants as possible, all successively more targeted to the Far East market with the most ostentatious and downright ugly styling bar none in the entire automotive industry - with the purpose (and it's no secret, their chief designer straight up as much said so in multiple interviews) with making intentionally garish cars to capture that market.

I think BMW stands alone as a modern automaker that purposely decided to make generally worse (or at least - less focused on perfection) and uglier cars, but with the strategy of making a lot more of them. Oh wait, can't forget spending actual billions to turn out a few electric cars most notable for being duds.

As a long time former BMW customer (four ED trips), fuck everything about today's BMW especially for the fact they turned the M3/M4 into an ugly joke.

[IamFODI]

Is this a universal truth? I think the scenario is specific to BMW.
For example, Audi has continued to produce good, attractive, and desirable cars for the last decade+
Another example, Porsche, besides people complaining about ever increasing pricing, people still rabidly seek out GT3s and 992s. Seem to just keep on getting better, even if you're a fan of the older ones.
And across the industry, Mazda, Kia, etc. are all making all around better cars these days.

But BMW, BMW purposely decided to fuck their established customer base and turn away from the core values of what made their success. At the executive level, they decided to abandon making the "ultimate driving machine", then wallowed with some ambiguous marketing campaign about "Joy", then decided to produce as many mediocre models and as many sub-variants as possible, all successively more targeted to the Far East market with the most ostentatious and downright ugly styling bar none in the entire automotive industry - with the purpose (and it's no secret, their chief designer straight up as much said so in multiple interviews) with making intentionally garish cars to capture that market.

I think BMW stands alone as a modern automaker that purposely decided to make generally worse (or at least - less focused on perfection) and uglier cars, but with the strategy of making a lot more of them. Oh wait, can't forget spending actual billions to turn out a few electric cars most notable for being duds.

As a long time former BMW customer (four ED trips), fuck everything about today's BMW especially for the fact they turned the M3/M4 into an ugly joke.

I agree with pretty much all of this, especially the looks part. But I suspect the driving dynamics part is incomplete.

Heyday BMWs were great driver's cars, but in their day they were also the best performing (or close) while retaining luxury. Of the people who bought them, how many did so for the driving experience vs. performance-plus-luxury?

If you look at who owns these cars today, it sure seems like the driving experience is a main motivator. How much of that is because everyone who liked those cars for other reasons has moved on, leaving a fanbase with a narrower range of tastes than the original customers had?

It looks like heyday-BMW prioritized driving enjoyment over raw performance. How much of that is because the technology of the time didn't permit even better performance without big sacrifices? (e.g. AWD was understeery AF without kludges, turbos were unreliable, heavy cars couldn't be made to handle, etc.)

Heyday BMWs have much better steering feedback than modern BMWs do. Was that because BMW thought steering feedback was valuable then, whereas they don't now? Maybe it's also because there was no way to filter out the feedback back then without making the front end vague-feeling and lazy, whereas current suspension and tire tech permits an intuitive and responsive front end with zero feedback (which a lot of people prefer)?

I've long suspected that cars have always been as numb, disconnected, and tech-heavy as technology permitted, because that's what most people want. The better technology got, the easier it was to separate what makes a car fast from what makes it good to drive. Now that that technology exists, the people who want speed and luxury are free to shop differently from the people who want a good driver's car – and it's pretty clear that the speed-and-luxury camp dominates the market.

In other words, I'm not sure BMW has changed its focus as much as it seems. Maybe they were always focused on the speed-and-luxury crowd, and the fact that they used to be better to drive is at least partly because of when they were made.

As for the companies whose identities don't seem to have changed as much... I feel like most of them never really served the markets BMW did in its heyday; many tried, and yes they got better, but that's largely because they kind of sucked before; and the rest (e.g. Porsche) did change in similar ways to BMW.

IDK. Food for thought.

[SYT_Shadow]

I'm excited about it. I miss the roll bar, bigger aero and the KW CS 3W from the GTS, but i'm excited about it.

People complain it's expensive, but we're in 2022, a Carrera S with a few options is already in the 150k range. I don't see why the CSL cannot live there as well.

[Slideways]

I'm excited about it. I miss the roll bar, bigger aero and the KW CS 3W from the GTS, but i'm excited about it.

People complain it's expensive, but we're in 2022, a Carrera S with a few options is already in the 150k range. I don't see why the CSL cannot live there as well.

In regards to the pricing, I will be surprised if someone is able to order one of these at MSRP. The dealer markups are pure BS.

[SYT_Shadow]

In regards to the pricing, I will be surprised if someone is able to order one of these at MSRP. The dealer markups are pure BS.

A friend has paperwork confirming MSRP. Dealer markups are insane now but the general economy is insane as well, I heard of someone doing 50k over MSRP on a Land Rover... WTF