Need help doing vanos test with INPA

[sapote]

I retimed it last night and got the following results

The new result looks good:
IN [-1 to 58]
EX [-1 to 47]

So what was the timing check result? Did it show that the EX cam was too advanced after bolting down the vanos piston caps? Were you able to push the EX piston 2mm forward of the vanos module?

[JBAshland]

I retimed it last night and got the following results (after clearing adaptations) whereas results prior to clearing adaptations were pretty off as I would think would be expected. No error codes as yet, so keeping my fingers crossed there. Results not perfect, but better? Thanks to you both for all of your help.

Test file : C:\EDIABAS\ECU\MSS54_VANOS_TESTS.TST
Start : 14.10.2022 11:47:38.8
Nr 1( 1) : 14.10.2022 11:47:38.9
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_FRUEHANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_ISTWERT = -1 FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿ
EVAN_SOLLWERT = -10 FF FF FF F6 ÿÿÿö
EVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
EVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 2( 1) : 14.10.2022 11:47:44.2
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_SPAETANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_ISTWERT = 58 00 3A .:
EVAN_SOLLWERT = 75 00 4B .K
EVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
EVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 3( 1) : 14.10.2022 11:47:49.5
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_VERSTELLZEIT"," ","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH = 250 00 FA .ú
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET = 234 00 EA .ê
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH_EINH = ms
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET_EINH = ms
Nr 4( 1) : 14.10.2022 11:47:55.7
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_DICHTHEIT",""," ")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_STATUS = EVANOS-1-Einheit vorzeitig weggedriftet
Nr 5( 1) : 14.10.2022 11:48:10.1
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_AVANOS1_FRUEHANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
AVAN_ISTWERT = -1 FF FF FF FF ÿÿÿÿ
AVAN_SOLLWERT = -10 FF FF FF F6 ÿÿÿö
AVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
AVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 6( 1) : 14.10.2022 11:48:15.4
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_AVANOS1_SPAETANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
AVAN_ISTWERT = 47 00 2F ./
AVAN_SOLLWERT = 55 00 37 .7
AVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
AVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 7( 1) : 14.10.2022 11:48:20.6
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_AVANOS1_VERSTELLZEIT"," ","")

[sapote]

The intake side is protruded about 2 mm, but the exhaust will go no further. This leads me to believe that the timing is set too advanced

Look at the EX splined shaft and see if it had protruded far enough. If you turn the EX cam far enough it should push the splined shaft off the hub which you don't want to push this far. The spines can jam tight so you need rock the cam to push it out.

Yeah, 13v at the cam sensor is a healthy supply.

[JBAshland]

Low voltage supply to the cam sensors might cause the sensor output signal out of spec, and this can cause the DME to read the cam timing incorrectly. so with the engine idling, measure the voltage at the fender jump post, then compare to the voltage at one of the cam sensor pin (3 pins with 12v, GND, and signal output and so the 12v should be a DC signal, either 5v or 12v I don't remember).
Remember to provide the year/month build, SMG or manual so I and others can look up the correct wiring diagram for the cam sensors.

Thanks Sapote. I think that may have been a red herring as I was able to reproduce the errors (after clearing) past idle and with checking the voltage (I could see reported voltage at the sensor was above 13 volts. I checked the timing per your procedure (at least started to) and I can't even get the exhaust piston to protrude past the cylinder. The intake side is protruded about 2 mm, but the exhaust will go no further. This leads me to believe that the timing is set too advanced on the exhaust as we have surmised?

[sapote]

Surprisingly, no adjustment was done. It is almost as if the cam timing slipped?

What I also seem to have found is that the Cam sensor codes 10 and 15 will consistently appear (after clearing) on startup after letting the car sit. If I clear the codes and then allow it to run and then check again, the codes will not come back - in the garage idling at least. INPA reports voltage to the sensor and RPM at the time of the error, and the voltage is less than 12 volts (usually around 11.4).

Low voltage supply to the cam sensors might cause the sensor output signal out of spec, and this can cause the DME to read the cam timing incorrectly. so with the engine idling, measure the voltage at the fender jump post, then compare to the voltage at one of the cam sensor pin (3 pins with 12v, GND, and signal output and so the 12v should be a DC signal, either 5v or 12v I don't remember).
Remember to provide the year/month build, SMG or manual so I and others can look up the correct wiring diagram for the cam sensors.

[JBAshland]

Thank you Sapote and Tomba!

As for a bit more context/answers to questions -

A new solenoid pack from BMW? I thought these can't be ordered anymore separately. A "known" failure of the solenoid pack is the solder joints. Also the terminal "legs" that go to the circuit board a quite long and might cause additional stress on the solder joint. Adding epoxy/glue should prevent it. Your last error code might have to do with that.

You can still order a solenoid pack from BMW or other sources - it includes the Valve body and Coil Pack. For example: https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/143526...oaAlnqEALw_wcB

I also have the 'upgraded' Beisan coil pack with similar results.

Did you do any adjustment on the cam timing between these posts? Because they seem to drift.

Surprisingly, no adjustment was done. It is almost as if the cam timing slipped?

What I also seem to have found is that the Cam sensor codes 10 and 15 will consistently appear (after clearing) on startup after letting the car sit. If I clear the codes and then allow it to run and then check again, the codes will not come back - in the garage idling at least. INPA reports voltage to the sensor and RPM at the time of the error, and the voltage is less than 12 volts (usually around 11.4). It may be that at startup, not enough voltage as expected is getting to the sensor and it is sparking the error. Checking the mss54 wiring diagram, the DME main relay and fuses are being fed by an 80amp fuse whereas in my scenario, I need to check how the swap wiring is currently being handled from the battery and cutoff switch.

I am going to follow Sapote's cam check procedure (thank you for the detailed write up Sapote), check wiring, maybe order a BMW sensor, have a look through Testo and then I will report back with findings. Thanks again to you both.

[Tomba]

sapote is completely right about the the camshaft timing procedure.

Thanks Tomba -

It is a perplexing issue and it's made worse in that the errors (posted below) that occur can mostly only be replicated on track under load/heat - this is a swapped s54 in a racecar. The results from the Vanos tests as posted above can be replicated anytime. I myself did the Vanos seal kit rebuild, oil pump disc, new Solenoid (brand new after also trying a rebuilt coil pack option from Beisan)

A new solenoid pack from BMW? I thought these can't be ordered anymore separately. A "known" failure of the solenoid pack is the solder joints. Also the terminal "legs" that go to the circuit board a quite long and might cause additional stress on the solder joint. Adding epoxy/glue should prevent it. Your last error code might have to do with that.

and at the time figured to also reset/ensure cam timing was correct using the correct tools. If you look back at my earlier post #38 you can see my results after doing so are different than currently and are much more inline with what is 'correct'. That said the error codes still came back and the only thing that I then changed was switching to a brand new solenoid and coil pack (which interestingly enough did seem to fix it for a spell (I even ran the car on a dyno to check and it dynoed as expected and there were no error codes present afterwards. This past weekend, the errors came back and performance suffered.

Did you do any adjustment on the cam timing between these posts? Because they seem to drift.

The sensors are VNE (which I believe are same as OEM). I have not replaced the accumulator or crank position sensor (never had a fault code on that) but pretty much everything else. I am leaning towards opening it back up, checking the cam timing, adjusting and re-running the tests. I am also going to look at wiring in case there is an electrical issue. Any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

I work sometimes in workshops and come close to the unpredictable errors that happens with sensors. Even original brands have a lot of mistakes (Hella / Bosch / you name them). Last a N46 engine with an intake camshaft sensor issue. The engine would take a long time to crank before it fired up. Looking at the signal with an oscilloscope we could observe that the signal needed time to "turn on". Although visually identical and OEM Hella it didn't respond equally to a sensor ordered at BMW dealer. Resistance was OK. The only thing different was the magnetic core strength. The Hella had less attraction/force to a metal part that the one ordered at BMW.

As mentioned above on S65 this is quite common and left a race company were i regular work for clueless. When racing the engine it is possible that the natural frequency comes out of spec due to different engine mounts.

10: Signal: Camshaft sensor, Exhaust

I am not really clear what this means. I suspect that within a certain amount of time a low / high / falling or rising edge is expected and can't be measured.
In S65 track cars this one comes up many times when using harder engine mounts. The solution is BMW Motorsport Camshaft sensors which have a different weight. I haven't seen it on S54 engines though.

15: Camshaft sensor 1: Synchronization to Crankshaft

This means that the expected crank angle window/range when a rising/falling edge is expected isn't happening. In your case it might be caused by the missing signal from the error code above.

I don't know if this is equal to S54 engine but when starting the engine the camshafts should be adjusted to their natural / factory position. The ECU checks if both camshafts are within range (normally +/- 10-15°). If not this error code could be triggered.
On S54 the camshafts are set factory wise on retard position while in idle the exhaust camshaft is moved in the advance position to reduce valve overlap in idle conditions. I am not sure if the exhaust camshaft is set differently during starting.

As a side note, the exhaust position trigger wheel is the only one with a missing tooth and used for the identification of the camshaft position.

185: Function: Exhaust VANOS

I suspect this is triggered once the desired exhaust angle can't be achieved. I suspect an error band of +/-2° degrees. Might also be triggered once no signal is present

72 EVANOS1-late valve

This code is triggered once the connection between the valve and ECU is interrupted / disconnected. I suspect no current or change in voltage is being detected once activated.


Do you have TestO? I would recommend using the Serial job for MSS54 and read the camshaft positions. Maybe some strange behavior comes up.
Next I would remove the valve cover, check the timing as sapote mentioned above.
Next I would compare the magnetic strength of all crank and camshaft sensors. If you have still OEM sensor used condition, use it to compare. In doubt I would order them original from the BMW dealer.
I will ask the race team for additional tips on this topic. I think they always use BMW delivered sensor on S54 and never had issues in any car or engine mount

[sapote]

I am leaning towards opening it back up, checking the cam timing, adjusting and re-running the tests. I am also going to look at wiring in case there is an electrical issue. Any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

The result shows both cams are too advanced, and so I am with you that remove the VC and check the timing. The best way to ensure the timing check is done properly is to set the crank at TDC compression, then remove both piston covers, then turn the cams CCW to push the vanos pistons protruding out of the vanos module by about 2mm (overshoot their most retarded position), then install and tighten down the piston caps to push the pistons to their proper max retarded as the caps bottomed out. With the crank still at TDC, now check the cams with the bridge pin, and I suspect the pin won't go through the cams as they are too advanced. If this is the case, then just retime them again.

[JBAshland]

Thanks Tomba -

It is a perplexing issue and it's made worse in that the errors (posted below) that occur can mostly only be replicated on track under load/heat - this is a swapped s54 in a racecar. The results from the Vanos tests as posted above can be replicated anytime. I myself did the Vanos seal kit rebuild, oil pump disc, new Solenoid (brand new after also trying a rebuilt coil pack option from Beisan) and at the time figured to also reset/ensure cam timing was correct using the correct tools. If you look back at my earlier post #38 you can see my results after doing so are different than currently and are much more inline with what is 'correct'. That said the error codes still came back and the only thing that I then changed was switching to a brand new solenoid and coil pack (which interestingly enough did seem to fix it for a spell (I even ran the car on a dyno to check and it dynoed as expected and there were no error codes present afterwards. This past weekend, the errors came back and performance suffered. The sensors are VNE (which I believe are same as OEM). I have not replaced the accumulator or crank position sensor (never had a fault code on that) but pretty much everything else. I am leaning towards opening it back up, checking the cam timing, adjusting and re-running the tests. I am also going to look at wiring in case there is an electrical issue. Any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

10: Signal: Camshaft sensor, Exhaust
15: Camshaft sensor 1: Synchronization to Crankshaft
185: Function: Exhaust VANOS
72 EVANOS1-late valve

[Tomba]

Hi -

apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_FRUEHANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_ISTWERT = -2 FF FF FF FE ÿÿÿþ
EVAN_SOLLWERT = -10 FF FF FF F6 ÿÿÿö

apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_SPAETANSCHLAG", "","")

EVAN_ISTWERT = 57 00 39 .9
EVAN_SOLLWERT = 75 00 4B .K

Intake = -2 to 57 while it needs to be 0-60.

EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH = 249 00 F9 .ù
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET = 233 00 E9 .é

reaction time is OK

AVAN_ISTWERT = -6 FF FF FF FA ÿÿÿú
AVAN_SOLLWERT = -10 FF FF FF F6 ÿÿÿö

AVAN_ISTWERT = 43 00 2B .+
AVAN_SOLLWERT = 55 00 37 .7

You get -6 to 43 while 0-45 is the desired working range. I do see 0-48 regular basis. For sure you could retard the exhaust camshaft to get more in spec

AVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH = 179 00 B3 .³
AVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET = 201 00 C9 .É

reaction time is OK

Is this test result showing that the Exhaust cam may be slightly advanced and the cam timing/vanos install should be checked? This is after a Vanos rebuild, new solenoid, new cam sensors, etc. I am getting Exhaust cam sensor codes as well as Exhaust Vanos codes again, so I decided to run this test again. I was previously getting more normal values for Actuals vs requested.

Yes, you should check it. It is strange it happened after a VANOS rebuilt as the cam timing should not be adjusted once doing this. But it might depend on who does the job. Which codes do you get? Sensors OEM or aftermarket?

[JBAshland]

Hi -

Is this test result showing that the Exhaust cam may be slightly advanced and the cam timing/vanos install should be checked? This is after a Vanos rebuild, new solenoid, new cam sensors, etc. I am getting Exhaust cam sensor codes as well as Exhaust Vanos codes again, so I decided to run this test again. I was previously getting more normal values for Actuals vs requested.

Specifically the following:
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_AVANOS1_FRUEHANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
AVAN_ISTWERT = -6 FF FF FF FA ÿÿÿú
AVAN_SOLLWERT = -10 FF FF FF F6 ÿÿÿö
AVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
AVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW


Test file : C:\EDIABAS\ECU\MSS54_VANOS_TESTS.TST
Start : 10.10.2022 16:38:00.0
Nr 1( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:00.1
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_FRUEHANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_ISTWERT = -2 FF FF FF FE ÿÿÿþ
EVAN_SOLLWERT = -10 FF FF FF F6 ÿÿÿö
EVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
EVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 2( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:05.4
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_SPAETANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_ISTWERT = 57 00 39 .9
EVAN_SOLLWERT = 75 00 4B .K
EVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
EVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 3( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:10.7
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_VERSTELLZEIT"," ","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH = 249 00 F9 .ù
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET = 233 00 E9 .é
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH_EINH = ms
EVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET_EINH = ms
Nr 4( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:16.9
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_EVANOS1_DICHTHEIT",""," ")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
EVAN_STATUS = EVANOS-1-Einheit vorzeitig weggedriftet
Nr 5( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:31.3
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_AVANOS1_FRUEHANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
AVAN_ISTWERT = -6 FF FF FF FA ÿÿÿú
AVAN_SOLLWERT = -10 FF FF FF F6 ÿÿÿö
AVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
AVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 6( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:36.6
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_AVANOS1_SPAETANSCHLAG", "","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
AVAN_ISTWERT = 43 00 2B .+
AVAN_SOLLWERT = 55 00 37 .7
AVAN_ISTWERT_EINH = Grad KW
AVAN_SOLLWERT_EINH = Grad KW
Nr 7( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:41.8
apiJob("mss54ds0","STEUERN_AVANOS1_VERSTELLZEIT"," ","")
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
AVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH = 179 00 B3 .³
AVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET = 201 00 C9 .É
AVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_FRUEH_EINH = ms
AVAN_VERSTELLZEIT_SPAET_EINH = ms
Nr 8( 1) : 10.10.2022 16:38:48.2

[GNevarc]

Specifically VANOS oil pressure. You may want to get a gauge together and measure. There are some good threads around here on it.

I need That!

[Pklauser]

Oil pressure.

Solenoids.

Specifically VANOS oil pressure. You may want to get a gauge together and measure. There are some good threads around here on it.

[eacmen]

Thank you!


So, do you know what could be causing this slowness?

Oil pressure.

Solenoids.

[GNevarc]

Your adjustment range is perfect.
0 to 60 for intake and 0 to 48 for exhaust is the spec.

Your adjustment times are within BMW spec, but a bit slow in my opinion, mine does intake in 200-230ms and exhaust in 180-200ms, so there is some improvement possible there.

Generally we declared under 250ms to be good, iirc.

Hope this helps.

Thank you!


So, do you know what could be causing this slowness?