G82 and E46 side by side

[Toby22]

My dude what are you talking about? Have you not been on bring a trailer? Im not saying our cars are future collectables or anything like that but we are well past the bottom of the depreciation curve.

Show me a comparable performance car from the 80s thats even near the original price of the e30 m3. This should be interesting.

Edit: I meant the e46 m3 have gone up in price, just like the 458 as you mentioned. It has no effect in what Ferrari or bmw aims to do moving forward as we are seeing.

see how you had to include “near original price of the e30 m3”. Being best bang for the buck doesn’t mean revolutionary. Although I can name a few 80’s American performance cars that can take that claim. R32 gtr came out a year after the e30 m3, in 1989.

[Kevin2772]

a MAJORITY of what is happening to these cars are the governmental restrictions and mandates on safety features as well as fuel efficiencies. These things all add weight and cost more money. That and all the technology getting packed into cars. Fact is, no one buys raw cars. Look at Lamborghini. Everyone talks about manuals but something like only 5-10% of ordered cars (murics and gallardos) were actually ordered with a 6 speed.

[heinzboehmer]

Fact is, no one buys raw cars. Look at Lamborghini. Everyone talks about manuals but something like only 5-10% of ordered cars (murics and gallardos) were actually ordered with a 6 speed.

Not in absolute numbers, but also 70% of 991.2 GT3s were ordered with a manual in the US: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3...ual-take-rate/

Most of the general public would rather have their side view mirrors beep at them than drive an engaging car, but there is definitely still a market for raw sports cars. Especially now that most cars are cushy and big, with only a couple of truly raw models still being produced.

[Toby22]

but there is definitely still a market for raw sports cars. Especially now that most cars are cushy and big, with only a couple of truly raw models still being produced.

porsche GT4? M2 competition is an amazing car and as rewarding to drive as an e46 m3 in a slightly different way imo. I do think bmw is still trying to please the old school enthusiasts, in a way they don’t go bankrupt lol

[bmw m3 s50]

I still dont understand your point. If BMW truly enlarged the 3/4 series solely for meeting safety requirements, then how much sense does it make that theyre also making the 2 series which is smaller than the e46. People just want bigger cars. Its not more complicated than that really

The m2 is about the same length as the e46 m3 but is wider. The point is the 2 series was not available when the e46 m3 was new. The progression is to increase size for safety standards from the previous model. Case in point the 1 series the predecessor of 2 series was smaller than the 2 series. It is all due to safety reason such as the crash and crumple zones.

Also, yes, also another reason is people are looking for interior space. These are all reasons why cars are getting larger.

Look at the 911. Why is the 911 getting larger and larger. The 911 is a pure sports car, interior space is not a concern for most buyers, yet the car continues to grow for the above reasons.

[bmw m3 s50]

a MAJORITY of what is happening to these cars are the governmental restrictions and mandates on safety features as well as fuel efficiencies. These things all add weight and cost more money. That and all the technology getting packed into cars. Fact is, no one buys raw cars. Look at Lamborghini. Everyone talks about manuals but something like only 5-10% of ordered cars (murics and gallardos) were actually ordered with a 6 speed.

Correct, governmental regulations and also cost effectiveness making the cars cheaper in r&d and manufacturing.

Yes, most new cars are autos and DCT because of the buyers. Most of these buyers are buying these cars as status symbol or to get the fastest car available. They sell the car a year or 2 later for newer models. People who buy the manuals are enthusiasts or speculators looking to hold the car which is not the norm for people buying $100k + cars.

[lemoose]

The m2 is about the same length as the e46 m3 but is wider. The point is the 2 series was not available when the e46 m3 was new. The progression is to increase size for safety standards from the previous model. Case in point the 1 series the predecessor of 2 series was smaller than the 2 series. It is all due to safety reason such as the crash and crumple zones.

Also, yes, also another reason is people are looking for interior space. These are all reasons why cars are getting larger.

Look at the 911. Why is the 911 getting larger and larger. The 911 is a pure sports car, interior space is not a concern for most buyers, yet the car continues to grow for the above reasons.

Crumple zones are meant to work longitudinally though so not sure how widening a car would improve its crash performance as you suggest.

Yes, the 3 series has grown- but the fact that BMW still makes a car with roughly the same footprint as the e46 shows that modern safety performance can still be met in the same package size. Same could be said for the 5 series, it is currently the size of the e38.... yet there are hundreds of models sold today that are smaller than the e39 and still meet modern safety standards.

[Icecream]

Crumple zones are meant to work longitudinally though so not sure how widening a car would improve its crash performance as you suggest.

Well, if you make it longer and don't make it wider - you're gonna have a bunch of mini limo looking things.

[bmw m3 s50]

Well, if you make it longer and don't make it wider - you're gonna have a bunch of mini limo looking things.

You literally beat me to the response.

[bmw m3 s50]

Crumple zones are meant to work longitudinally though so not sure how widening a car would improve its crash performance as you suggest.

Yes, the 3 series has grown- but the fact that BMW still makes a car with roughly the same footprint as the e46 shows that modern safety performance can still be met in the same package size. Same could be said for the 5 series, it is currently the size of the e38.... yet there are hundreds of models sold today that are smaller than the e39 and still meet modern safety standards.

I beg to differ, I can’t think of one car that has not gotten larger through the release of newer generations. This is comparing the same car to same car’s newer generations and not comparing one car model to different model. Why is that? The reason is government regulations and safety standards which are to blame. A few inches added through every new generation adds up after a few generations.

[Bostonbruck]

My friends newer 435i M is the same weight as my 2001 750il..... that’s sad af.

[01SG]

I recall reading that government regulations have the most to do with front end design and why they are all flat and square now. Something to do with pedestrian safety in a collision. As mentioned, small cars can still be made; look at Lotus, the Miata, and indeed the two-series. Safety and regulation have something to do with it, but it's also clearly the market. People want huge cars, for status, for safety, or because they're becoming ever more enormous themselves.

I think cost effectiveness does play a large role too. BMW is committed to making everything from the same modular chassis, this CLAR platform. It's the backbone of everything from the three to the seven, which goes to show why the new three is such a monstrosity. This also goes with the streamlining of the turbo engines. It's cheaper and most people don't care to know what they're missing. Most BMW buyers couldn't give a damn if the engine was turbo, naturally aspirated, or electric. It would be a huge investment to make a bespoke high revving naturally aspirated motor, especially now, considering they ditched the technology entirely almost a decade ago.

And not for nothing, the unfortunate fact is, the best, most interesting driver's cars BMW ever made never sold. The e30 m3 didn't sell well, the e36 m3 LTW didn't sell, the z3/z4 M coupe/roadsters didn't sell. Porsche was a sports car company first and foremost, whereas BMW also had the luxury side of things to fall back on. It seems they determined that market was much more important, and it is, from a financial standpoint.

[02_lsb]

This thread went sideways about as fast as expected. Starting to feel like the m3forum again.

[lemoose]

I beg to differ, I can’t think of one car that has not gotten larger through the release of newer generations. This is comparing the same car to same car’s newer generations and not comparing one car model to different model. Why is that? The reason is government regulations and safety standards which are to blame. A few inches added through every new generation adds up after a few generations.

I love hot takes as much as the next guy, but this one is not even half-baked. You can still buy a facking Mistubishi Mirage in the US and it meets all crash standards and regulations. You cant blame the guvment for everything wrong in the auto world lol.

[yhp2009]

Interesting discussion, but honestly its all very simple imo. No one is twisting BMW's arms. Sure a nudge here or there, but in the end BMW will always go where the money is. Like any good company should. We enthusiasts are the minority. If one day the majority of drivers out there want engaging cars with high revving NA engines then that is where BMW will go regardless of what the govt recommends