What oil?

[enjoy_m3]

Personally I wouldn't choose oil by what racing teams use. That oil is changed frequently, for LMP cars usually between races. A formulation that works well for race cars for one weekend is very different than one that lasts 7500 miles.

Dont get me wrong Motul is a quality oil. But looking at the logos on the side of racing cars is not what you should be concerned with.

Currently have a stockpile of Castrol edge that I'm going through. After that going to try either Ravenol or Motul.

I bring some leftover liquimoly to the track in case I need to top off oil, I never use it for a full fill.


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He still didnt get it. LOL!

[IamFODI]

I agree that one shouldn't pick street oil based on race use. But I wouldn't blow off an endurance racing oil for street OCIs just because it's a "racing" oil. Those cars cover a lot of miles in a race (1k to 3k+ AFAIK), and that's almost 100% flat-out. Still a lot different from 7500 street miles in a street engine, but not as different as one might think.

I've used 300V for 5k+ OCIs (100% street) in a tired old S52 with significant fuel dilution. The oil held up fine. Plenty of people have done the same.

IMO, the real benefit of a motorsport program is the same for lubricants as it is for any other part of a car. It's not so much about using parts directly off the race car, though that's cool when it happens. It's mainly about the knowledge, expertise, and partnerships cultivated through racing. As much as I wouldn't pick an oil just because a race team used it, I also wouldn't even consider an oil from a company without a successful motorsports program.

[Arith2]

As much as I wouldn't pick an oil just because a race team used it, I also wouldn't even consider an oil from a company without a successful motorsports program.

A prime example is Liquimoly. It's used in the BMWs at Le Mans. I still won't buy it. There's still research to be had on top of it. Motul has a much longer history and more connections. It's partnered with many championships since the 50s, I believe, back when it was an American company. My final choice on Motul over Liquimoly is the HTHS being 5.8 in Motul and 3.5 in Liquimoly. Higher means it has a more resistance to being sheared off the surface versus ease of flow. Motul has fewer detergents and HTHS is better. Liquimoly will give better gas mileage at the expense of not creating a lasting film. It's slight more viscous when cold and about the same at temperature so I think overall, it's better. Flashpoint is basically the same. From oil reports, the ZDDP are higher in both, however, Motul uses molybendum without an additive. Motul is overall cheaper and my opinion is it's better because it's not designed to need additives. Motorsports teams using it just puts me at ease. It's just awesome you can buy the race oil. I know it feels good to think you got me in a gotchya moment, I still look at data.

Motul > LM CHANGE MY MIND

[IamFODI]

I know it feels good to think you got me in a gotchya moment

Let me assure you FWIW that this was not at all what I meant to do. Apologies if I made it seem that way. I was mostly responding to eacmen's points.

[Carbonvert]

A prime example is Liquimoly. It's used in the BMWs at Le Mans. I still won't buy it. There's still research to be had on top of it. Motul has a much longer history and more connections. It's partnered with many championships since the 50s, I believe, back when it was an American company. My final choice on Motul over Liquimoly is the HTHS being 5.8 in Motul and 3.5 in Liquimoly. Higher means it has a more resistance to being sheared off the surface versus ease of flow. Motul has fewer detergents and HTHS is better. Liquimoly will give better gas mileage at the expense of not creating a lasting film. It's slight more viscous when cold and about the same at temperature so I think overall, it's better. Flashpoint is basically the same. From oil reports, the ZDDP are higher in both, however, Motul uses molybendum without an additive. Motul is overall cheaper and my opinion is it's better because it's not designed to need additives. Motorsports teams using it just puts me at ease. It's just awesome you can buy the race oil. I know it feels good to think you got me in a gotchya moment, I still look at data.

Motul > LM CHANGE MY MIND

So you are running 8100 X-Power?

Ever tried the 300v in these cars? That’s what the race teams would use


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[Arith2]

Let me assure you FWIW that this was not at all what I meant to do. Apologies if I made it seem that way. I was mostly responding to eacmen's points.

No issue, I was also being sarcastic. It's hard to be serious on an oil thread.... I have to look into Total oil to be consistent because they are partnered with alot of teams as well. Idemitsu is a good oil if you guys have some Japanese cars. I'd use Eneos also but it just costs more. Japanese cars exist to cost the least amount of money

Le Mans is good this year and happening right now. Motortrend has a 14 day free trial so you guys can watch for free with no commercials. I'm pretty mad about the BOP adding 14kg killing the Porsche team. They got sick of them winning I guess.

[eacmen]

In all seriousness please don't run race oil in a street car. All the detergents are removed and replaced with anti wear. Great for enduro engines with inter-season or inter-race rebuilds but horrible for a street car with typical oil change intervals.


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[IamFODI]

Idemitsu is a good oil if you guys have some Japanese cars.

Interesting you mention Idemitsu...

They have one oil that's had my attention for a while, and it's their rotary engine oil. PAO/ester with a unique additive package: moderate detergent levels, stout ZDDP level, and a boatload of moly. The moderate detergent level minimizes competition with the anti-wear and anti-friction additives, which means those additives perform better than their levels suggest -- all while keeping sulfated ash around 0.9% or less, which is almost inconceivable for a performance oil. It should still be fine for short-to-moderate OCIs while performing at a level that'd be hard to match.

[IamFODI]

In all seriousness please don't run race oil in a street car. All the detergents are removed and replaced with anti wear. Great for enduro engines with inter-season or inter-race rebuilds but horrible for a street car with typical oil change intervals.

I get why people think this but it's incorrect and really needs to be mythbusted.

Race oils run the gamut from zero to healthy levels of detergency, depending on the application. AFAIK, the only engines that use no detergents are drag engines that get torn down after every pass and can't afford anything but the highest level of anti-wear performance. Everything else needs some amount of detergency. Combustion byproducts, oil breakdown, and fuel dilution would kill an engine that's run on non-detergent oil pretty quickly. The longer the race, the more the additive package looks like that of a street oil.

Look up any oil analysis on Motul 300V, or Mobil's race oils, or... basically any race oil that isn't explicitly marked as having no detergent. There's always some Ca and/or Mg in there. Less than in a long-drain street oil, but not zero.

Per this link, the pic below is from 500 miles in a NASCAR engine:


From that page:

The discoloration is the result of oxidation, which is caused by heat, soot and other combustion carbon byproducts that blow by the rings.

Again: does this oil have less detergency than a long-drain street oil? Almost definitely. But if it had none, the engine wouldn't finish the race. All that crap that's darkening the oil (because the detergents are holding it in suspension) would instead be collecting in the engine, polishing the cylinder bores, etc.

[eacmen]

I get why people think this but it's incorrect and really needs to be mythbusted.

Race oils run the gamut from zero to healthy levels of detergency, depending on the application. AFAIK, the only engines that use no detergents are drag engines that get torn down after every pass and can't afford anything but the highest level of anti-wear performance. Everything else needs some amount of detergency. Combustion byproducts, oil breakdown, and fuel dilution would kill an engine that's run on non-detergent oil pretty quickly. The longer the race, the more the additive package looks like that of a street oil.

Per this link, the pic below is from 500 miles in a NASCAR engine:


From that page:



Does this oil have less detergency than a long-drain street oil? Almost definitely. But if it had none, the engine wouldn't finish the race.

Would you run race engine oil with 7500 mi OCI?


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[IamFODI]

Would you run race engine oil with 7500 mi OCI?

Castrol TWS is a race engine oil (i.e. used in race cars), so yes, I absolutely would.

[eacmen]

Castrol TWS is a race engine oil (i.e. used in race cars), so yes, I absolutely would.

TWS is an OEM spec'd oil for a consumer engine. It is not a race specific oil. The fact that it is used it race cars is irrelevant.

Motul 300v is specially formulated and marketed for racing and I would not recommend running it with a long oil change interval.


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[IamFODI]

TWS is an OEM spec'd oil for a consumer engine. It is not a race specific oil. The fact that it is used it race cars is irrelevant.

It was a race oil before it was a street oil. 🤷♂️ But we're way into the weeds here.

If your question is whether any oil with the word "racing" in the name is suitable for long OCIs, the answer is no.

If your claim is that those oils have no detergents, that is incorrect. Some don't but most do.

If your claim is that those oils are not suitable for any street use, that is also incorrect. Maybe they can't do 7500 miles but most could do 3k-5k.

If you're genuinely concerned about whether any "race-specific" (by your definition) oils could make it to 7500 miles in a street engine, my speculation on that point is worthless. Someone would have to try it with a good oil analysis regime before anyone (including you or I) could say either way.

If none of this applies to you, feel free to ignore everything I posted.

[r4dr]

Now these are the pedantic arguments I came into the oil thread for!!

Too bad these cars aren't LL01 specced, we could start wildly speculating on what exactly changed in the 2018 update and why M1 0W-40 suddenly doesn't have it, but does it even matter? Is LL01 even a current spec? Will my car blow up with LL01FE?

[eacmen]

It was a race oil before it was a street oil. 🤷♂️ But we're way into the weeds here.

If your question is whether any oil with the word "racing" in the name is suitable for long OCIs, the answer is no.

If your claim is that those oils have no detergents, that is incorrect. Some don't but most do.

If your claim is that those oils are not suitable for any street use, that is also incorrect. Maybe they can't do 7500 miles but most could do 3k-5k.

If your claim is that those oils are not suitable for ANY street use, that is also false.

If you're genuinely concerned about whether any "race-specific" (by your definition) oils could make it to 7500 miles in a street engine, my speculation on that point is worthless. Someone would have to try it with a good oil analysis regime before anyone (including you or I) could say either way.

If none of this applies to you, feel free to ignore everything I posted.

Okay I will concede. Replace "all detergents" with "most detergents" and my argument still applies. All I am trying to do is prevent the average S54 owner from running a boutique oil intended for race applications because of a forum post. Most of the guidance from the S54 community is to take the factory OCI and cut it in half, so 7500 miles should be the standard that we use for a basis of discussion. I do it more frequently but our car is also primarily for track use.

If you know what you are doing and are informed about the oil then go for it and run it. But I would not recommend the average owner go out and buy 300v, or HPL, or any oil primarily intended for race applications and put it in their street car. Oils with less detergents will have a higher chance of developing sludge.

I have not run Oil Analysis on 300v or HPL, and not aware of anyone else who has for 7500 miles. If anyone has that data please chime in.

What I have done is run OA on LM 10w60 for 7500 street-only miles, and Edge 10w60 after 2000 miles and 8 HPDE days with 4 30 minute sessions each day. The OA came back both times from blackstone indicating that a longer oil change interval would be just fine.

Previous owner of our car ran LM Racetech 10w-60 and Motul 8100 10w60 at unknown intervals. Top end looked very clean. Bottom end had excessive rod bearing wear at 80k miles. Again mostly subjective but another datapoint for Motul.