BBK Crisis-996 or Anything Else

[Fresh1179]

Alright, so I was planning on picking up the Essex Radi-Cal kit (4 or 6 piston 355mm) for my car in the offseason. My car is driven exclusively to and from the track, about 60 miles away. I may have to purchase a trailer given that I have the CSL tune from Kassel that won't connect to N.C. emissions. No inspection, no renewal of the plates. I have been trying to get in touch with them for going on 6 months about purchasing a U.S. Spec DME with an Alpha N tune so I can drive to get it inspected, drive home and replace the DME. Not quite sure why I can't get this done, but it has been about to be ready for sometime now.

Notwithstanding the above, I am stuck at a crossroads on my BBK decision. I run about 24 days a year at VIR, and I am finally at a point where I am "outdriving" the stock brake system.

After reading a bunch of reviews and checking around on everything, I keep going back to the 996 conversion. I can get:

Lifetime Rebuild Kit 4 Corners
Lifetime Pistons (Need to Check)
Lifetime Rotors
Lifetime Rotor Hardware
Lifetime Caliper Hardware
Lifetime Disc Hardware
Lifetime Pads

Aside from that, I would need to purchase the calipers, RR machining, RR brackets, and would probably want the calipers to be freshly powdercoated.

Then I would have solid brakes at all four corners. Something about it seems too good to be true but no one should mention that haha.

That....is not bad.

For those running this setup, do you deal with a lot of fade during 20-30 minute sessions or are the brakes solid? Do you wish you had gone with a different setup? For others, why do you love your current setup (track predominantly or exclusively)

Thanks

[Estoril]

Do you want free consumables - or great brakes?

[repoman89]

There aren’t any track pads available on FCP fwiw. I bought some DS1.11 elsewhere for next year, haven’t run them yet.

Minimal to no fade for me over 20 minute sessions on the stock Textar pads but they seem to develop pad deposits easily when hot, and I ran down the fronts in two track days (14 20-min sessions total). Those are on FCP though!

I am a track newbie but to me it was a no brainer simply because it was almost free after selling my stock ZCP brakes. I also worry about consumables cost on an already expensive hobby. It’s great using rotors, pads and rebuild kits made for common OEM setups as well so no worries about future availability. I kind of doubt I’ll ever outdrive this setup as I improve, especially since the car will continue to lose weight and thereby be easier on the brakes.

[bigjae46]

I thought about doing the Porsche conversion or going back to stock. The problem is the best FCP E offerings are DTC70 and Ferrodo 2500. Neither really appeal to me.

I run Stoptech ST40/355mm front and rear with brake ducts. Never had a brake issue or concern and my consumable costs are very low. I've switched from NT01s to Toyo RRs - I think I'm getting a little less pad life. On my first set of RRs so nothing definitive yet.

Also, since it will come up, never had pad knockback.

[eacmen]

What tires are you running? VIR is generally easy on brakes.

At Summit Point main with 200tw tires i’ll start to get fade after 15min. But at VIR I can abuse them all weekend on stock brakes with DTC70, no sign of fade and I brake WAY more than I need to.

Are you tapping brake pedal going into braking zone after high G turns?

Have you tried the brass caliper guide bushings? I had serious pad taper (causing mushy brakes) without them.

[Fresh1179]

What tires are you running? VIR is generally easy on brakes.

At Summit Point main with 200tw tires i’ll start to get fade after 15min. But at VIR I can abuse them all weekend on stock brakes with DTC70, no sign of fade and I brake WAY more than I need to.

Are you tapping brake pedal going into braking zone after high G turns?

Have you tried the brass caliper guide bushings? I had serious pad taper (causing mushy brakes) without them.

Interesting. I’m using brass bushings. Interestingly enough I also ran the stock setup with DTC 70/60 split and the Stoptech slotted rotors from FCP. I tap my brakes on the end of the straights.

This is the entire reason for this post. I ran the combo on the last set of new Re-71r’s I could find and by the third day the DTC 70’s were gone (honestly, I’m talking completely gone) and I had A MASSIVE shit yourself fracture on my front right rotor. Scared my into thinking I need something new. I bed the pads and burnish the rotors per Hawk and I had no pads after 3 days.

The rear pad life was totally normal. I will concede I did rebuilt my front calipers AFTER that experience but I didn’t get a chance to go back out before the end of the year because of work.

Maybe I just need a better ducting system but it put the fear of god me that needed something better(even if I was abusing the brakes without knowing it).


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[eacmen]

Interesting. I’m using brass bushings. Interestingly enough I also ran the stock setup with DTC 70/60 split and the Stoptech slotted rotors from FCP. I tap my brakes on the end of the straights.

This is the entire reason for this post. I ran the combo on the last set of new Re-71r’s I could find and by the third day the DTC 70’s were gone (honestly, I’m talking completely gone) and I had A MASSIVE shit yourself fracture on my front right rotor. Scared my into thinking I need something new. I bed the pads and burnish the rotors per Hawk and I had no pads after 3 days.

The rear pad life was totally normal. I will concede I did rebuilt my front calipers AFTER that experience but I didn’t get a chance to go back out before the end of the year because of work.

Maybe I just need a better ducting system but it put the fear of god me that needed something better(even if I was abusing the brakes without knowing it).


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Sorry I should have said I also have front brake ducts and SS lines. I only did two days but plenty of pad life left. DBA 4000 rotors. Plan to switch to OE from FCP after they die.

All that being said I am still looking into BBK as well since i do way more days at summit.

[r4dr]

Hawk DTC-70s are pretty harsh on rotors. I'd opt for DS1.11 or even Pagid RSL29 Yellows over them. PFC 08 are fantastic as well but they're getting hard to find in some shapes.

That being said, a properly ducted stock setup should be able to handle a lot, assuming there's no overbraking or riding the brakes.

[eacmen]

Hawk DTC-70s are pretty harsh on rotors. I'd opt for DS1.11 or even Pagid RSL29 Yellows over them. PFC 08 are fantastic as well but they're getting hard to find in some shapes.

That being said, a properly ducted stock setup should be able to handle a lot, assuming there's no overbraking or riding the brakes.

Agreed. But with FCP it doesnt really matter. I’ve already gotten one free set of rotors and two sets of pads.

[bigjae46]

Ducting direct to the rotor will make a big difference. I can run good street pads in a pinch although braking distances increase, the pads won’t totally overheat and fall apart.

Couldn’t do that without ducting.

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[r4dr]

Ducting direct to the rotor will make a big difference. I can run good street pads in a pinch although braking distances increase, the pads won’t totally overheat and fall apart.

Couldn’t do that without ducting.

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Should be clarified that ducting means actual hoses going to backing plates with a cutout directing airflow into the hub. The stock "ducting" is not ducting. OP should have this already given how he uses the car, but if not then that's a huge step up.

[Fresh1179]

I have ducting as stated above, but perhaps I need to upgrade it to include the backing plate instead of my less than perfect setup in terms of delivering rotor directly through a specially designed backing plate.

I hate to ask this question, because I have had nothing but issues with the Hard Motorsports parts I purchased, but the low profile ducting kit they offer looks promising. So did the door cards but they are now splash protection during oil changes. Anyone have any experience with this kit?


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[mrgizmo04]

I am somewhat in your situation. Car is dual duty.

I've run fully stock setup with pfc08 pads and was running through rotors and pads very quickly (sometimes several times a year, because some events I run allow long sessions >30mins). Doing a pfc08 4 corner replacement is not cheap and you can't swap pads front to rear (different pad size).

Instead of going piecemeal and trying ducts next, I took the plunge and got the ST40 355x32 kit. I initially installed just the fronts. Pad and rotor life improved significantly due to a huge heatsink in front. Rear was still getting chewed up but still a huge improvement and replacements became once a year somewhat preventatively (that rotor is only 20mm thick when fresh).

I then decided to install the rest of the ST40 kit in rear, 355x32, to see what that would do. I have not quite run this setup for a year yet, but this has drastically improved feel/confidence (no more sliding caliper) and wear front and rear (I use a digital caliper to measure rotor and pad thickness/wear throughout the year). You can also swap rings and pads front to back as things wear, so there is a plus on this setup, as it's all the same size. Funny enough, I noticed somewhat of a tapered pad wear in back because ST40 use the same piston size 28mm for both leading and trailing pistons (somewhat of a digression, but pcar calipers use different piston sizes for better wear).

I then installed cooling ducts in front (cheap diy, I have a video on YouTube). I didn't fully remove/cut up the front dust shield, but it has a cutout that I leveraged and enlarged toward the center of the hub (just in front of it). It is super important not to route cold air only to the inner ring surface, but to the center of the hat/rotor and let the air veins do the pumping work to cool both surfaces evenly to avoid stress cracks. As I mentioned I run some events with long sessions and without the cooling ducts about 1/3 (sometimes more) of the pad was gone after an event, after cooling ducts only about 1mm of pad material was gone, so huge help. Even if you are not fading the brakes, cooling ducts will prolong life of pads and rings if done properly (but you have to make sure you are not running open ducts 24/7 or for street driving because then you are overcooling them and at sub optimal temps abrasive wear is worse).

I must admit that I felt that the rear kit was a bit overkill...

We know that we need a larger heatsink, larger thermal mass (whether it is thicker, larger diameter, etc) rotor and (thicker, taller, wider) pad to deal with heat. 1/2*m*v^2 from you/car has to go somewhere, and it goes to m*specific heat of material*delta t of your brakes. We want to lower the delta t. So bigger stuff like rotor/pad size or better cooling helps. From yourself/your car development you can say that dropping mass on the car/stripping it will help. Yes. But you are also probably getting faster. Then m probably goes down at a smaller rate than v^2 though, so there is still a tonne of energy to dissipate.

I want to try going down to a Porsche kit. I will next year to try it out. I think it will be enough with front cooling ducts (rears are trickier to cool "correctly" due to parking brake surface). The pads are larger than stock m3 for pcar calipers front and rear. The rear rotor is exactly the same size as stock. For the rear rotor I am not a fan of the swiss cheese design, but it is 2 piece-ish. I do not know what outweighs what, without some real life testing - swiss cheese design cracking vs providing better cooling (until swiss cheese holes get full of pad material) and being 2 piece-ish. That said for rear rotor you have a lot of options with just using blanks, slotted, slotted and drilled, etc from FCP. My biggest unknown here is the front rotor. In the odd 345 size (yes bigger heatsink due to diameter but same thickness) it is the only option from FCP with its swiss cheese design.

Few other considerations top of my mind. Running flat ride with soft ish front springs I get some weight transfer forward under braking. I will need to see how that jives with pcar setup moving the bias rearward. That could get interesting with trailbraking. Tied to next point...
FCP pad offering. Your only real option for relatively serious track work is hawk dtc60/70. They are not for everyone. They have high initial bite (upsets the car), but maybe driving/braking style/moderation can be adjusted/relearned by the driver. This is on my mind, again, due to soft spring setup in front and how that will balance/upset the car. I'm bugging FCP for more options, they say they keep looking for other vendors. Maybe ds1.11 will come back. Maybe not. Worst case you can get pads you like elsewhere, while keeping the rest of the kit (rotors, caliper seals/rebuilds) FCP-able.
Would I be ok with more frequent (possibly more than once a year) replacement of rotors/pads. Maybe preventative because I might be a bit concerned about swiss cheese design of the fronts and potential cracking. Some of the more dedicated setups can have rings last for years.
Am I ok with not being able to "rotate" pads and rotors/rings front to back as things wear.

All that said, I have seen pcar setup be successful on track via first hand knowing several people who run it, or chatting with others who know z4/e36m3 running the setup. Some outgrew the setup and got a more "proper" front kit (leaving the pcar rear), main point of concern was the front rotor size/thickness and it just wasn't lasting.

Moving to this "FCP" kit is a good option (sans FCP pad selection and maybe front rotor longevity). It can work for some. I wouldn't say it's a no-brainer for everyone. What I can tell you is that folks seems to stick with the pcar rear, but some move off of the pcar front to something else, but at that point you are not really running this kit via FCP.

My plan is to give this pcar/FCP kit a shot, see how it works, what I like/don't like. I will keep my ST40 kit in the garage, in case I want to go back partially to it (run ST40 front with pcar rear), or for whatever reason want to go back to full ST40. This real life guinea pigging will happen next season, so I won't have experience or thoughts until a good while into next year.

I'll leave you with these thoughts here.

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[Sergmann]

Track car only, trailered to events. Not registered. I went from ducted stock brakes with brass guides and SS lines running DTC-70 front DTC-60 rear to the 996 setup. It should be said I went 996 over Stoptech C43 strictly for the free consumables. The C43 is 20+ years newer tech, lighter and stiffer. It is a better caliper in every regard as are most all the other BBK options out there. Pads are also very cheap and in hindsight I should have gone this route but here I am.

Initially all FCP offered was the DS1.11 so I opted for that pad. The Feraddo pad in this setup was a downgrade from stock IMO. I hated the brakes and had no confidence in them. There wasn't much fade over a 25 minute session but they didn't stop the car well. I seriously contemplated going back to stock after my first two events after the retrofit but I put all that effort into the kit so I stuck with it. When the Feraddo's were ready to be replaced FCP had DTC-70's available so I switched. Night and day difference between the two pads. I expected the hawks to be better since the DS1.11 is more of an enduro pad but it was amazing the difference. If you are outdriving your stock brakes the DS1.11 will disappoint you on the track no question. With the DTC the car feels like it actually got an upgrade. I am happy with the performance on the track.

Major pro of this kits it the topside pad change. I am able to swap pads between sessions if need be. The free consumables are also nice but as I stated above if I had it to do again I would look at the Stoptech C43 setup and keep my stock rears. At that point the rear pads are still free and fronts can be had for under $200/set.

My .$02 is if you are looking for a track BBK the 996 setup is not ideal. It isn't even all that cheap any longer with caliper prices creeping up plus all the other bits needed. With new pads and rotors I was into me setup for just under $2500 and that was last year. It is a fine kit and the 4 wheel BBK does look pretty cool IMO but there is much more modern tech out there now that is better at track duty.

[BMWE46M3]

What year is your car? If it's a 2001 or 2002 then I have good news. I too live in Raleigh and Wake County revised their emissions requirements back in the tail end of 2019 that states "Vehicles are exempt from emissions inspections under the following conditions: Vehicle is 20 years old or older." https://www.ncdot.gov/dmv/title-regi...spections.aspx

Regarding the brakes, I too went the 996 route but installed Akebono ceramic pads to minimize brake dust since it's primarily a DD. However, I was just up at VIR a couple weeks ago for their annual Charity Laps and participated in three sessions with zero problems. And I of course recognize that charity laps are significantly less harsh on brakes then actual racing, but I wanted to at least share my perspective.