S54 Stroker build

[M/Anthony]

And Id like to apologize to seeming a bit crazy, I didn't even know much until this forum about building s54s, lots of good s54, and overall engine building knowledge being shared. I also feel like I started the most interesting and highly debated thread on this forum so far lol.

[Feffman]

Using forged rods (CP-Carrillo: 491 grams) and pistons (JE: 330 grams) takes approximately 1,686 grams (3.717 pounds), a reduction of 34%, of rotating mass out of the engine. That's the equivalent weight of 2.66 stock pistons or 3.5 stock rods. You can spin that a little faster.

Feff

[M/Anthony]

Using forged rods (CP-Carrillo: 491 grams) and pistons (JE: 330 grams) takes approximately 1,686 grams, a reduction of 34%, of rotating mass out of the engine. That's the equivalent weight of 2.66 stock pistons or 3.5 stock rods. You can spin that a little faster.

Feff

Yes that is one part of this build I wanted to do, since the s54 feels slow to rev in my opinion. But that also adds strength. Also why I want a billet crank, lighter and stronger. Thank you for the detailed information. I didn’t even think it was that much until now.
Anthony

[Sharocks]

Other than it's mildly possible with enough money, OP where do you plan on driving this thing? I have 288/280s with a built/ported head for 9k rpm. I have my redline set at 8500. I'm short shifting usually around town at like 8k.

If this is going into a street car, understand these are PEAK numbers.

If it's gonna be a street car, grab some 280/272's, mildly build your head, run E85 and you should be good for at least very close to 400 rwhp at a useable rpm.

If I was gonna do it over again, I'd go that route.

[M/Anthony]

Other than it's mildly possible with enough money, OP where do you plan on driving this thing? I have 288/280s with a built/ported head for 9k rpm. I have my redline set at 8500. I'm short shifting usually around town at like 8k.

If this is going into a street car, understand these are PEAK numbers.

If it's gonna be a street car, grab some 280/272's, mildly build your head, run E85 and you should be good for at least very close to 400 rwhp at a useable rpm.

If I was gonna do it over again, I'd go that route.

It will barely be daily driven, and its going t be a fun weekend and track car.

May I ask what components do u have in your head ex valves springs, valves etc.

any certain reason for the 280/272, is it for the power band?

This will have E85

[Sharocks]

It will barely be daily driven, and its going t be a fun weekend and track car.

May I ask what components do u have in your head ex valves springs, valves etc.

any certain reason for the 280/272, is it for the power band?

This will have E85

To be completely honest with you, my car isn't that much fun around town lol. It's almost a chore to rev it out so I'm mostly driving the M5.

Head has a full Supertech Titanium valvetrain. Ported and polished, 5 angle valve job etc. Valves are not oversized. Basically everything that Supertech makes for the S54, it has in the head. Inconel would have been nice but not noticeable and this setup is OVERKILL to the Nth degree lol .

With proper tuning you can get to 288 numbers with 280's and have a beefier midrange. Peak torque on my car was at like 4500 rpm.

I'm only missing stepped headers and a CSL airbox. With E85 I'd be over the 400 whp mark but I don't want to run E85. It gums up cars since it has a lot of sugar in it. I feel like if you're gonna run E85 only, that motor is on borrowed time haha.

[M/Anthony]

To be completely honest with you, my car isn't that much fun around town lol. It's almost a chore to rev it out so I'm mostly driving the M5.

Head has a full Supertech Titanium valvetrain. Ported and polished, 5 angle valve job etc. Valves are not oversized. Basically everything that Supertech makes for the S54, it has in the head. Inconel would have been nice but not noticeable and this setup is OVERKILL to the Nth degree lol .

With proper tuning you can get to 288 numbers with 280's and have a beefier midrange. Peak torque on my car was at like 4500 rpm.

I'm only missing stepped headers and a CSL airbox. With E85 I'd be over the 400 whp mark but I don't want to run E85. It gums up cars since it has a lot of sugar in it. I feel like if you're gonna run E85 only, that motor is on borrowed time haha.

thats good to hear that about your valve train lol. This is good information since you've done this. Thank you for sharing your build btw. Your car does look stunning
So gong big duration camshafts aren't the best option and idea basically, don't go higher duration because you lose lower end power. How much of a difference with 288/280 in the top range compared to 280/272?
Are those the Supertech valves that people had issues with? and since they're titanium how often do you have to replace/do valve adjustments?
I will most likely run inconel because there doesn't seem to be a negative to it beside a few more bucks.
What do you mean by a chore to rev it out?
Who did your port and polish?

[Sharocks]

thats good to hear that about your valve train lol. This is good information since you've done this. Thank you for sharing your build btw. Your car does look stunning
So gong big duration camshafts aren't the best option and idea basically, don't go higher duration because you lose lower end power. How much of a difference with 288/280 in the top range compared to 280/272?
Are those the Supertech valves that people had issues with? and since they're titanium how often do you have to replace/do valve adjustments?
I will most likely run inconel because there doesn't seem to be a negative to it beside a few more bucks.
What do you mean by a chore to rev it out?
Who did your port and polish?

Thanks, the 288's move the powerband upwards in the rev range. With a proper tune the 280's can do the same but most cars with 280's aren't revving past 8500.

Haven't had an issue with my Supertech parts. Only the valvetrain springs, retainers etc are Titanium. I believe the valves themselves are SS. I'm doing valve adjustments at normal intervals, every 30k or 3 years.

The Inconel ones are a lot cheaper nowadays, this head was built like 8 years ago lol.

The car doesn't make power low end. So it's chore to rev it out because I don't wanna be spinning tires to get up and moving.

Port and polish was done by a local shop in Pittsburgh.

[M3AN ONE]

I love this car and especially the engine but for the price I dont think this engine has more cons than pro's when it comes to adding a stoker. I am happy with a ceiling of 375 reliable whp for the price and risk to reward I think it would be better to just drop a Dinan Built 5.8L v10 If your chasing bmw NA power.

[Obioban]

I love this car and especially the engine but for the price I dont think this engine has more cons than pro's when it comes to adding a stoker. I am happy with a ceiling of 375 reliable whp for the price and risk to reward I think it would be better to just drop a Dinan Built 5.8L v10 If your chasing bmw NA power.

There's a reason you don't see a lot of stroker builds on here. I'd say >90% of people that go past the bolt ons/cams/TBs route end in engine failure, and the additional power to be gained is surprisingly... minimal.
(which makes sense, since going to a 3.4L is only a 6% displacement increase-- so, all else equally optimized (unlikely it will be for the stroker, since it's a less worked out path), 6% more power).

[Anri]

Other than it's mildly possible with enough money, OP where do you plan on driving this thing? I have 288/280s with a built/ported head for 9k rpm. I have my redline set at 8500. I'm short shifting usually around town at like 8k.

If this is going into a street car, understand these are PEAK numbers.

If it's gonna be a street car, grab some 280/272's, mildly build your head, run E85 and you should be good for at least very close to 400 rwhp at a useable rpm.

If I was gonna do it over again, I'd go that route.

Hi,

Man could you please explain to me how on earth you can achieved 400RWHP
out of as you call it "Mild" build with 280/272 cams and E85 ?

If we talk say Dyno-Jet I do consider 13.5-14% drive train loss absolute no more
than that but that is my personal tests I have done. So based on this drive train loss
you are saying that your suggestion will make 468hp at the crank.

Fuck, I wander were BMW Motorsport GmbH went all wrong back in 2001 with their
race engine which target is to survive the given race and that is it, and they never ever
made more than 435-450hp. at the crank..and that is all out P54 engine which means its
race engine and the European measuring tape for HP is DIN not SAE. 141hp per liter DIN.

468hp SAE crank is 146hp per liter...So if convert to DIN this will be legit a tad under 150hp
per liter.

So if you were to build all out S54 engine what would be estimate power 500-550hp crank ?
which is 156hp per liter ?

BMEP on S54 for the given displacement and RPM's will never allow to produce this
level of power ever put on E85. If we put M5+Nitro sure it can make 600hp no problem.

To produce power out of small displacement we need RPM's. Back in 92's those V6
engines were producing nearly 420hp crank out of 2.5 per regs. but ~12000rpm.


This is exactly how people are screwed and fooled. One needs to approach this more
logical rather than "Bro my stock S54 tune by XXX makes 350 wheel dude" let me give
you a ride...

Serious Race engine builds are rated at the Engine Dyno never on chassis dyno...and
with (BMEP) in mind !!!

Regards,
Anri

[Sharocks]

Hi,

Man could you please explain to me how on earth you can achieved 400RWHP
out of as you call it "Mild" build with 280/272 cams and E85 ?

If we talk say Dyno-Jet I do consider 13.5-14% drive train loss absolute no more
than that but that is my personal tests I have done. So based on this drive train loss
you are saying that your suggestion will make 468hp at the crank.

Fuck, I wander were BMW Motorsport GmbH went all wrong back in 2001 with their
race engine which target is to survive the given race and that is it, and they never ever
made more than 435-450hp. at the crank..and that is all out P54 engine which means its
race engine and the European measuring tape for HP is DIN not SAE. 141hp per liter DIN.

468hp SAE crank is 146hp per liter...So if convert to DIN this will be legit a tad under 150hp
per liter.

So if you were to build all out S54 engine what would be estimate power 500-550hp crank ?
which is 156hp per liter ?

BMEP on S54 for the given displacement and RPM's will never allow to produce this
level of power ever put on E85. If we put M5+Nitro sure it can make 600hp no problem.

To produce power out of small displacement we need RPM's. Back in 92's those V6
engines were producing nearly 420hp crank out of 2.5 per regs. but ~12000rpm.


This is exactly how people are screwed and fooled. One needs to approach this more
logical rather than "Bro my stock S54 tune by XXX makes 350 wheel dude" let me give
you a ride...

Serious Race engine builds are rated at the Engine Dyno never on chassis dyno...and
with (BMEP) in mind !!!

Regards,
Anri

Hasan is making 382 whp with 280/272's on pump gas. E85 would bump those numbers up a smidge. So it's very possible with the right tuning and conditions.

You're thinking too hard at this lol. It's already been done. There's another car in Florida making 394 whp on E85 with the same cam setup albeit with a built head, I believe Lang did his head.

[F1Dryvr]

Im in this same boat since my head gasket blew and i seemed to have blow by on all cylinders anyway. So this thread has been quite helpful.

Since I am pulling the head, the engine can come out and be gone through. Lang seems to have a nice head rebuild option(for some money, and as was just mentioned, some power). Also he has a crank/piston/bearing package that is very attractive as well,(also for some money) He widens the stock crank rod bearing journals for wider rod bearings and presumably better reliability there. Im not sure if power is lost (if any) by doing this but then they clearance and match all the bearings and balance the parts in house before they send em to you so no guess work or extra tools required. Just bore the cylinder to 87.5 and start building.

If anyone has done either of these builds(the widening or the head build) id love to hear some feedback on them.

[M/Anthony]

Im in this same boat since my head gasket blew and i seemed to have blow by on all cylinders anyway. So this thread has been quite helpful.

Since I am pulling the head, the engine can come out and be gone through. Lang seems to have a nice head rebuild option(for some money, and as was just mentioned, some power). Also he has a crank/piston/bearing package that is very attractive as well,(also for some money) He widens the stock crank rod bearing journals for wider rod bearings and presumably better reliability there. Im not sure if power is lost (if any) by doing this but then they clearance and match all the bearings and balance the parts in house before they send em to you so no guess work or extra tools required. Just bore the cylinder to 87.5 and start building.

If anyone has done either of these builds(the widening or the head build) id love to hear some feedback on them.

Sorry to hear that,

Agreed feedback would be great, thank you to Sharocks for providing a personal build, helps give real-world expectations. Thank you for finding this thread useful, that was one of my goals lol.

I'm awaiting a response from lang but most likely he will be doing a lot of my work, since he's the closet engine builder I know, and he's done great s54 builds so far. Once I get in contact I will ask him with reliability and the steps he will take to ensure that.

And does anyone know of a reputable engine builder where I could bore and sleeve my block near NorCal?

[cozmo kraemer]

Lets semi-start over,
I hear what everyone is saying and I also thank you for your input.
can we shift the build to scrapping 9000rpms as it will be impossible and dangerous
What if we switch to running a higher compression, but also increasing torque.
Going off what Carbahn and Mike run, increasing compression in displacement can be doable, his engine maxes his hp at 8100.
So then, I'm not saying stuff won't be custom and this and that. Making this engine reliable with higher compression and higher torque.
I still believe we can get a pretty aggressive build matched with a high diff ratio.

Just my $.02

In my discussions with Andrew, the path to bigger high rpm power is to de-stroke the engine to a 3.0l, rev it out as far as possible and build it for high RPM only. You sacrifice nearly all streetability, but that is the path to what you the big high rpm power

I think MisterEm on here had a reliable 3.4l stroker that made over 400whp if I remember correctly. I would probably mirror that setup. I think it had the most documented power on the boards. I could be wrong there though, I haven't seen much documented from full stroker builds. I did a lot of research on it when I spun my rod bearing. I thought about going that route but instead went with buying a good used engine, doing rod bearings and putting in the car. That has turned into doing the full cylinder head rebuild and basically replacing everything. I probably would have been better off just rebuilding as a stroker, or at least a wider rod bearing journal crank refresh with forged rods and pistons, slightly higher compression and just slightly more bore to make the cylinders perfect.

I guess we will see what it makes when it is all together. It has been an experience.