Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

S54 Stroker build

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    S54 Stroker build

    Hello all,

    I have a spare S54B32 long block with 137k miles (40-50 ish k on tranny) from my previous m3. I plan to rebuild the entire engine than swap it into an e46 m3. I want to stroke my S54 to either a 3.4L or 3.5L. I do not have any intentions with forced induction, as I dream to have an overbuilt, overengineered naturally aspirated s54. This will not be a race engine but will see hard-driving, many track days, and very few daily driving miles, possibly a gts4 car way in the future. Its main purpose is to be a very hardcore car basically. While there is some information out there and I have already contacted an S54 specialist (VAC), I needed some information a little bit faster on my direction for stroker parts. My main question is what Bore size and compression ratio I should run. I know the stock s54 runs an 11:5:1 but will 12:1, 12:5:1 be more feasible or even 13:1? This isn't my realm exactly and that is why I need your input on the best compression ratio, bore size, and camshafts. I would like to run bigger than 288/280 as BMW Motorsport put out I believe 296/288 cams for the S54 ( not totally confident on that). I would like to achieve 400+rwhp as I will be adding lighter drivetrain components like carbon driveshaft, lighter clutch, etc. Kits possibly? Finally, I want to retain VANOS to keep with the nature of the car and the driveability of it. Thank you and any help or reference to other engine builders/ people that can help will be greatly appreciated.

    Anthony

    #2
    Have you considered contacting Lang Racing Development? They are highly regarded and offer S54 stroker kits and components.

    Jesse
    Old, not obsolete.

    Comment


      #3
      Lang Racing does different stages of head work for your lighter components. You do know this engine is not going to last very long right? What you're wanting is going to cost ALOT of money and reliability is going to be gone.

      For compression ratios, I believe once you get to 12.5:1 compression 93 octane isn't going to cut it. You will need to convert to race fuel or by that true E85 online. Look up what a lot of chevy drag racing guys use for fuel.

      Bore size can be machined out from 87mm to 87.5mm but not beyond that as there won't be enough metal between the cylinders so it's basically going to be all stroke.

      I would look into a standalone ECU that will actually show live data and whatnot for something so high performance. If you don't have a good tuner, this engine will probably blow up quickly.

      I don't race cars but this is the information I've pieced together over time from research and school. If I'm not mistaken, 296/288 would be too aggressive to maintain the vanos. The vanos can only advance timing so much and once you start adding so much duration in, advancing becomes difficult. A valve could hit a piston much easier.

      Lightening up valvetrain components significantly decreases durability. Titanium parts are crazy light but aren't as durable. Valve shims might start flying if you rev too high as well.

      I want to see you succeed at this because N/A engines are quite superior when engineered right. They tend to be more efficient even if they don't put out more power.
      This is my Unbuild Journal and why we need an oil thread
      https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...nbuild-journal

      "Do it right once or do it twice"

      Comment


        #4
        When you do get around to building, please document it! Very interested in seeing this build and your justification on parts you're using

        Comment


          #5
          You should also ask yourself where you plan to race this car down the road and try to at least futureproof if... you could very well spend a ton of money on a motor that is not legal or competitive by then.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Arith2 View Post
            Lang Racing does different stages of head work for your lighter components. You do know this engine is not going to last very long right? What you're wanting is going to cost ALOT of money and reliability is going to be gone.

            For compression ratios, I believe once you get to 12.5:1 compression 93 octane isn't going to cut it. You will need to convert to race fuel or by that true E85 online. Look up what a lot of chevy drag racing guys use for fuel.

            Bore size can be machined out from 87mm to 87.5mm but not beyond that as there won't be enough metal between the cylinders so it's basically going to be all stroke.

            I would look into a standalone ECU that will actually show live data and whatnot for something so high performance. If you don't have a good tuner, this engine will probably blow up quickly.

            I don't race cars but this is the information I've pieced together over time from research and school. If I'm not mistaken, 296/288 would be too aggressive to maintain the vanos. The vanos can only advance timing so much and once you start adding so much duration in, advancing becomes difficult. A valve could hit a piston much easier.

            Lightening up valvetrain components significantly decreases durability. Titanium parts are crazy light but aren't as durable. Valve shims might start flying if you rev too high as well.

            I want to see you succeed at this because N/A engines are quite superior when engineered right. They tend to be more efficient even if they don't put out more power.
            No, you're mistaken, it's entirely possible to run big boy cams in an S54...and retain VANOS. The Schrick cams that you're both referencing are actually 304/296 duration specs, and it's actually more the lift than duration that gets you into trouble. Both the 288/280 and 304/296 are available in high lift versions (14mm), and this is where you could possibly run into trouble and would need to double check piston-to-valve clearances. At this level though, most folks would be running custom aftermarket pistons, and they can be designed w/custom reliefs in the piston tops to account for the higher lift cams. Even an 'off the shelf' piston could have deeper reliefs machined into the top to accommodate higher lift cams.

            Also, I believe that ST has developed a shim conversion kit that all but eliminates the worry of spitting shims out. Mike @ MaxPSI ran this set up successfully in his turbo car. OP, sounds like it could be an epic build, but I would encourage you to do more research on part selection and maybe talk to the folks over at Partee racing. I've read about a few of their recent S54 builds, and they could be a good source of info as well. Also, maybe try contacting Matt Coyne @ Coyne Performance as he has a lot of experience building S54's as well. GL!

            EDIT: OP, to answer a couple of your other questions:

            !. I believe that you can make 400WHP keeping it a 3.2, but of course stroking it would add a little bit more HP and more importantly-torque...which these engines can certainly use!.
            2. I think that you will need to bump comp. ratio to either 12.0:1 or 12.5:1 to achieve your 400WHP goal. Anything above 13.0:1 is probably unnecessary, and would most certainly require a steady diet of either race fuel or E85/100.
            Last edited by stash1; 04-23-2020, 08:33 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              "Not a bad way to spend $(3)0,000 dollars" - Dom, probably.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Daniel View Post
                When you do get around to building, please document it! Very interested in seeing this build and your justification on parts you're using
                Yes. This weekend I will start a blog/journal on it. however, I only have the block so I won't post much but once the engine is built that's when we'll get the other m3. It will be a very long journal as I have many plans and eventually widebody down the road. I'm happy the new forum got set up so I can do a journal. It should be great indeed! (dream car)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by stash1 View Post

                  No, you're mistaken, it's entirely possible to run big boy cams in an S54...and retain VANOS. The Schrick cams that you're both referencing are actually 304/296 duration specs, and it's actually more the lift than duration that gets you into trouble. Both the 288/280 and 304/296 are available in high lift versions (14mm), and this is where you could possibly run into trouble and would need to double check piston-to-valve clearances. At this level though, most folks would be running custom aftermarket pistons, and they can be designed w/custom reliefs in the piston tops to account for the higher lift cams. Even an 'off the shelf' piston could have deeper reliefs machined into the top to accommodate higher lift cams.

                  Also, I believe that ST has developed a shim conversion kit that all but eliminates the worry of spitting shims out. Mike @ MaxPSI ran this set up successfully in his turbo car. OP, sounds like it could be an epic build, but I would encourage you to do more research on part selection and maybe talk to the folks over at Partee racing. I've read about a few of their recent S54 builds, and they could be a good source of info as well. Also, maybe try contacting Matt Coyne @ Coyne Performance as he has a lot of experience building S54's as well. GL!

                  EDIT: OP, to answer a couple of your other questions:

                  !. I believe that you can make 400WHP keeping it a 3.2, but of course stroking it would add a little bit more HP and more importantly-torque...which these engines can certainly use!.
                  2. I think that you will need to bump comp. ratio to either 12.0:1 or 12.5:1 to achieve your 400WHP goal. Anything above 13.0:1 is probably unnecessary, and would most certainly require a steady diet of either race fuel or E85/100.
                  Yes, there are a couple of machine shops (HMB Motorwerks- great guys really helpful did a Vanos job for the S54 and it worked out well if anyone is in the Norcal area I suggest them as a good mechanic shop). I would be ok sending it out to an engine builder as I do not have the tools or skills necessary. That is why I saw the CAT Cams that ran 304/296 with 13.75mm and 13mm lift, would this be more beneficial to run in my setup as they have less lift? I saw a forum where VAC mentioned a 54 could get 500bhp, I've also seen Mike Cottter's build with a similar spec (3.4L pump gas) and VANOS retained with slightly less cams than 304/296 run 391 rwhp and I forgot what torq but still very high. Yes, I've been trying to research this striker for months now and I can't really get anywhere due to the lack of information there is on stroker builds, which also encourages me to do one. Im expecting to replace every component of my engine and going custom pistons to achieve this goal is ok, but Id rather try and buy readily available pistons. By ST do you mean Supertech? If so they are very good with S54 valves and I was considering adding them to my build, will look more into. And I will give those guys a call, one day on here has been more beneficial to months on old forums and stuff, Thank you guys very much. Don't worry I will be trying to continue this post with building the engine, results, dynos, etcs SInce no one ever really does big s54 builds. If there is anyone else that I should talk to let me know as I still need to learn a lot.

                  Anthony
                  Last edited by M/Anthony; 04-23-2020, 12:20 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Arith2 View Post
                    Lang Racing does different stages of head work for your lighter components. You do know this engine is not going to last very long right? What you're wanting is going to cost ALOT of money and reliability is going to be gone.

                    For compression ratios, I believe once you get to 12.5:1 compression 93 octane isn't going to cut it. You will need to convert to race fuel or by that true E85 online. Look up what a lot of chevy drag racing guys use for fuel.

                    Bore size can be machined out from 87mm to 87.5mm but not beyond that as there won't be enough metal between the cylinders so it's basically going to be all stroke.

                    I would look into a standalone ECU that will actually show live data and whatnot for something so high performance. If you don't have a good tuner, this engine will probably blow up quickly.

                    I don't race cars but this is the information I've pieced together over time from research and school. If I'm not mistaken, 296/288 would be too aggressive to maintain the vanos. The vanos can only advance timing so much and once you start adding so much duration in, advancing becomes difficult. A valve could hit a piston much easier.

                    Lightening up valvetrain components significantly decreases durability. Titanium parts are crazy light but aren't as durable. Valve shims might start flying if you rev too high as well.

                    I want to see you succeed at this because N/A engines are quite superior when engineered right. They tend to be more efficient even if they don't put out more power.

                    I have 400rwhp as a goal because I want to see how far I can actually get with this engine, as I believe there is a lot fo potential In it. I believe 14mm lift can still retain vanos, somebody confirms? I have no intention of building it or anything but, I've seen many 3.4, 3.5, and 3.7L S54 variants out there, and I would ideally sleeve it in case anything happens to the actual block itself. What would be the ideal valvetrain components in that case, because iv seen the s54 make power in the 8100-8300 range when stroked, reliability is very big with this project making sure the engine can go around the city for an hour then hit the track and me not having to worry about it blowing up. I am new to this so I apologize for the next comment but, wouldn't upgrading to stainless steel or titanium be stringer than oem? Doesn't the CSL run 1mm bigger exhaust valves while retaining VANOS? I will try and lighten up the drivetrain( Billett Crank, lighter clutch, and carbon driveshaft) to free up lost HP. Yes, the overengineered naturally aspirated engines are the best engines IMO and I want to encourage S54 owners that not only is building an s54 fun but also really nice when done right. That's why I hope this thread goes on for a while and doesn't die out, as there will be lots of info. And if anybody knows of any tuner, that would be great, I know HTE Performace does great tunes (280/272 cams 3.2L and like 38x something rwhp naturally aspirated) but I do need to a tuner that would adapt to such needs. I think the stock ecu will be fine because I still need it to manage everything else in my car (anybody confirm?).

                    Anthony
                    Last edited by M/Anthony; 04-23-2020, 12:22 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by D-O View Post
                      Have you considered contacting Lang Racing Development? They are highly regarded and offer S54 stroker kits and components.

                      Jesse
                      I'll shoot them an email today, and the other guys mentioned.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by M/Anthony View Post

                        Yes, there are a couple of machine shops (HMB Motorwerks- great guys really helpful did a $5k Vanos job for the S54 and it worked out well if anyone is in the Norcal area I suggest them as a good mechanic shop). I would be ok sending it out to an engine builder as I do not have the tools or skills necessary. That is why I saw the CAT Cams that ran 304/296 with 13.75mm and 13mm lift, would this be more beneficial to run in my setup as they have less lift? I saw a forum where VAC mentioned a 54 could get 500bhp, I've also seen Mike Cottter's build with similar spec (3.4L pump gas) and VANOS retained with slightly less cams than 304/296 run 391 rwhp and I forgot what torq but still very high. Yes, I've been trying to research this striker for months now and I can't really get anywhere due to the lack of information there is on stroker builds, which also encourages me to do one. By ST do you mean Supertech? If so they are very good with S54 vaalvers and I was considering adding them to my build, will look more intio. And I will give those gusy a call, one day on here has been more beenfical to motnhs on old forums and stuff, Thank you guys very much. Dont worry I will be tryuing to contiune this post with buikding the engine, results, dynos, etcs SInce noone ever reeally does big s54 builds. If there is anyone else that I shoudl talk to let me know as I still need to learn a lot.
                        CAT Cams are a fine option as well, and yes, I would recommend running the larger CAT cams...if you go w/them. You might be able to get there w/the 288/280's, but it would just be easier w/the larger cams. Ehh, 500 BHP equates to roughly 425-ish WHP (based on a 15% drivetrain loss), and is probably only attainable by running a stroker w/monster comp., big boy cams, stand-alone ECU, and race fuel. IIRC Mike has 'large' Crower custom cams, and could easily break 400 WHP w/the right exhaust set up/fuel/tuning. Yes, ST = Supertech. They had a problem w/their titanium retainers yrs. ago, but have since re-spec'd them...and now they also offer that shim conversion kit as well...which should essentially bullet-proof the valvetrain.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by stash1 View Post

                          CAT Cams are a fine option as well, and yes, I would recommend running the larger CAT cams...if you go w/them. You might be able to get there w/the 288/280's, but it would just be easier w/the larger cams. Ehh, 500 BHP equates to roughly 425-ish WHP (based on a 15% drivetrain loss), and is probably only attainable by running a stroker w/monster comp., big boy cams, stand-alone ECU, and race fuel. IIRC Mike has 'large' Crower custom cams, and could easily break 400 WHP w/the right exhaust set up/fuel/tuning. Yes, ST = Supertech. They had a problem w/their titanium retainers yrs. ago, but have since re-spec'd them...and now they also offer that shim conversion kit as well...which should essentially bullet-proof the valvetrain.
                          I've heard a while back about Supertech valves failing, which made me very hesitant to look at them, but I've seen a couple of more people run them and more positive reviews since they re-spec'd them. How hard is it to drive with 304/296 ( I haven't seen anyone review them)?Does anybody know or have any experience with CAT CAMS, I know Schrick is very good, I don't want to worry about anything going wrong with my camshafts. yeah, based on Mike's build, that's why I believe this build is very much possible. Would it make more sense to have like a street and track tune, so I can just reflash the DME? basically I'll run lower RPMs and a more mild tune on the street since I want to increase my Redline to 9k. Then just flash a sperate track tune and run race gas or whatever else is needed to support that? I plan to have a carbon intake that runs from the kidney grills so I would definitely have the airflow, I may just get bored out throttle bodies as well. Thanks,

                          Anthony

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by M/Anthony View Post
                            I've heard a while back about Supertech valves failing, which made me very hesitant to look at them, but I've seen a couple of more people run them and more positive reviews since they re-spec'd them. How hard is it to drive with 304/296 ( I haven't seen anyone review them)?Does anybody know or have any experience with CAT CAMS, I know Schrick is very good, I don't want to worry about anything going wrong with my camshafts. yeah, based on Mike's build, that's why I believe this build is very much possible. Would it make more sense to have like a street and track tune, so I can just reflash the DME? basically I'll run lower RPMs and a more mild tune on the street since I want to increase my Redline to 9k. Then just flash a sperate track tune and run race gas or whatever else is needed to support that? I plan to have a carbon intake that runs from the kidney grills so I would definitely have the airflow, I may just get bored out throttle bodies as well. Thanks,

                            Anthony
                            Those cams will run just fine, and if tuned properly, you won't notice any drivability difference vs. stock. Yes, you could do a 'valet' tune for street driving and a race tune for track only...or just try to keep your foot out of it on the street. I'm not sure who's doing 'switchable' tunes on the stock DME currently? I believe that Nick was/is, but not 100% sure anymore. I'm sure other tuners could pull it off, but it would be easier w/a stand-alone system.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by stash1 View Post

                              Those cams will run just fine, and if tuned properly, you won't notice any drivability difference vs. stock. Yes, you could do a 'valet' tune for street driving and a race tune for track only...or just try to keep your foot out of it on the street. I'm not sure who's doing 'switchable' tunes on the stock DME currently? I believe that Nick was/is, but not 100% sure anymore. I'm sure other tuners could pull it off, but it would be easier w/a stand-alone system.
                              Looks like MSSMapper will allow you to do this.
                              2002 Topasblau M3 - Coupe - 6MT - Karbonius CSL Airbox - MSS54HP Conversion - Kassel MAP - SSV1 - HJS - PCS Tune - Beisan - AutoSolutions - Vibra-Technics - CMP - VinceBar - Koni - Eibach - BlueBus - Journal - Instagram

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X