The Official Bring A Trailer (BaT) Thread

[IamFODI]

I think people's opinions of how a car looks are HUGELY effected by how it drives.

I'd hope this would be the case, and I'm sure it is for some, though I've also seen a lot of the opposite (i.e. "yeah it's great and all but it's so ugly" or "yeah it's not as good a driver but it's so much prettier" etc.).

[maw1124]

Steering feel, chassis feel, body control, engine dynamics, transmission.

The things that differentiate sports cars from cars.

To be clear, I'm only claiming the e60M is a 4 door sports car-- not the e39M. The e39 530i is far closer to a sports car than the e39 M5, IMO.

I see "feel", "feel" and transmission... I disagree on body control and engine dynamics (unless low torque and high rev -- more "feel") are what you're after.

I get it, it's about the adrenaline rush, which AMG certainly isn't. You're doing the same things -- going faster, cornering sharply, braking instantly -- it just doesn't feel like it. You're doing it somewhat effortlessly. And maybe that's no "fun" but that's also kinda their point. Back in the 80s and 90s the complaint about Mercedes from performance car people (even talking about the AMG and Cosworth variants) were that the cars were supremely competent but felt too clinical compared to BMW. And now that I own them both, I can see that it's true, and why.

To be clear, 8 out of 10 times I'll reach for one of the "muscle car" Benzes I own. This car is for those other 2 times -- when I want to "feel" like I'm near the limit with relatively low stakes, as someone aptly put it above. In the Benzes, no matter what you do you get the sense you're nowhere near the limits.

That said, over the weekend I came as close as I ever will to losing control of the S55, clowning around with some kid. And it took sports mode on and traction control off to get there. Still the car straightened itself out quite nicely (eventually, notwithstanding my frantic over corrections) and into my rear view mirror the kid went.

maw

[Obioban]

I disagree on body control and engine dynamics (unless low torque and high rev -- more "feel") are what you're after.

If you make a list of all the all time great drives/sports cars, they're all low torque high revving:
S2000
GT3
ITR
M3s
Ferraris
Miata's
Elans

Being forced to work the engine over to get the most out of the car makes the driving experience more involving. Involving driving experience is a large part of what makes a sports car a sports car-- exactly why I don't want any automatics in my sports cars.

You're doing the same things -- going faster, cornering sharply, braking instantly -- it just doesn't feel like it. You're doing it somewhat effortlessly. And maybe that's no "fun" but that's also kinda their point. Back in the 80s and 90s the complaint about Mercedes from performance car people (even talking about the AMG and Cosworth variants) were that the cars were supremely competent but felt too clinical compared to BMW. And now that I own them both, I can see that it's true, and why.

To be clear, 8 out of 10 times I'll reach for one of the "muscle car" Benzes I own. This car is for those other 2 times -- when I want to "feel" like I'm near the limit with relatively low stakes, as someone aptly put it above. In the Benzes, no matter what you do you get the sense you're nowhere near the limits.

I think one of the defining aspects of being a sports car is being able to be driven at/near the limit for long periods of time on end. That very much requires steering feel, chassis feel, and body control to be viable. See previous list-- characteristic also checks out there.

None of which is to say every car needs to be a sports car-- I have the e39M, and very much think it isn't one. But, the e60 M5 is the most sports car of any mid size sedan I know of. IF that's what you're looking for, it's top dog.

... but not pretty, has a terrible interior, and you can't get it without iDrive.

[Obioban]

After all this chat I’m just really glad I did not purchase an e39 M5 when given the chance recently. I want light or at least a lightweight feeling car with sharp dynamics and a more manic engine.

I’ve always wanted to tick the E39 M5 box, but if it’s my only ‘fun’ car ir sounds like I’d be disappointed. My ‘fun’ is mostly defined by low speed canyon roads at the limit of adhesion with just ‘ok’ tires. Fun enough to get the blood flowing but relatively low stakes.

appreciate the candid experience on this board. Also, we he most recent Carmudgeon on the e39 m5 line sup with what you guys mention as well.

I would be very frustrated with the e39M as my only car. It is excellent and what it's good at (e.g. took it on a 1000 mile road trip a couple of weeks ago, and can't think of a car I'd rather have been driving), but as an only car I would be longing for a more involving driving experience.

[Obioban]

Semi related, mostly just posting it because it amuses me every time I watch it.

Fresh start (which is generally when you cue up navigation) navigating, e60 idrive (first car shown) vs e39 MKIV:
(same start and end destination)

[maw1124]

Agreed. I’m a sporty luxury car guy, with this one thrown in just to keep things light and fun. I like luxury cars that go, turn and stop very well. When I want a sports car it’ll be something different altogether, probably some Porsche. The only time I looked at and drove a E60M was in comparison to my S55, and there was nothing “sporty” the M5 could do to overcome the luxury, speed and looks (not necessarily in that order) of the S55. There’s only so hard I’m going to push a sedan but the E39M is something I can definitely see myself owning, similar to the E92M Sedan — might even be worth driving a stick. I could never have this as my only car though.

maw

[jet_dogg]

Everything is debatable except for the seats, torque, and exhaust note (C63 wins those and I can't really see a way around that) but I think in general the v10 has captivated people to an extent that they overlook just how badly (generically?) styled the e60's are, remember there was absolutely no love from enthusiasts for a long long time with respect to the aesthetics of an e60. What happened? Same thing that will happen to current generation of M3. Everyone screams my god look at that ugly bastard but then their opinion softens as time goes on and the repeated viewings erode away objectivity. Let me remind everyone with the video below and unfortunately it still rings true. To quote Clarkson "The new 5 series is an ugly car", "it sounds like a diesel". It wasn't just Clarkson either, the car was not well received by most. Performance wise there is no doubt it is good and Clarkson and crew firmly stated this in part 2 of their series, I'm not arguing that but it isn't so good that I would want it over any of the cars I have because it doesn't overcome just how aesthetically unpleasing it really is. If I'm going to buy an ugly performance car I'm going to buy the current generation M3 (I get a monster with a nice interior and good seats) way before I buy an e60, particularly now that prices for a clean examples are escalating. The e46 m3 to me is the best looking car BMW ever produced, so clean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRwR1WH0rR8

This is exactly right, ten years from now the m4 will be "not that bad". The longer these cars are around the more they're forgiven because people get used to them.

An ugly car will always be an ugly car and the Dame Edna headlights are the worst.

[MTiz]

I've never sat in a w204 so I don't know how the seats compare, but did you really hate the E60 seats that much? I love them personally. Way more adjustable and comfortable than my E46 seats. Like comparing a fluffy cloud to a rock lol.

The styling is subjective but I've always found the E60 M5 (specifically in LCI form) to be attractive. I will say that the "pedestrian" E60's look bad. 525, 535, 550's etc. all look pretty ugly to me (with some props going to M-sport variants). Maybe they just look too bland to me? I can't really say. The M5 has the perfect amount of aggressive styling, which makes it very attractive looking to me. But its all subjective.

[MTiz]

Semi related, mostly just posting it because it amuses me every time I watch it.

Fresh start (which is generally when you cue up navigation) navigating, e60 idrive (first car shown) vs e39 MKIV:
(same start and end destination)

Ok I actually laughed out loud watching this. I love the E60M's interior but the iDrive is actually terrible. When I get mines it will be getting ripped out for an android unit with apple carplay immediately

[Tbonem3]

I've never sat in a w204 so I don't know how the seats compare, but did you really hate the E60 seats that much? I love them personally. Way more adjustable and comfortable than my E46 seats. Like comparing a fluffy cloud to a rock lol.

The styling is subjective but I've always found the E60 M5 (specifically in LCI form) to be attractive. I will say that the "pedestrian" E60's look bad. 525, 535, 550's etc. all look pretty ugly to me (with some props going to M-sport variants). Maybe they just look too bland to me? I can't really say. The M5 has the perfect amount of aggressive styling, which makes it very attractive looking to me. But its all subjective.

Agreed. And the seats are very nice, not sure what he's talking about, but everyone has different opinions.

[tlow98]

I would be very frustrated with the e39M as my only car. It is excellent and what it's good at (e.g. took it on a 1000 mile road trip a couple of weeks ago, and can't think of a car I'd rather have been driving), but as an only car I would be longing for a more involving driving experience.

this is helpful. To clarify - we currently have an f15 X5 as my wife’s primary and my 330i (2002my) that I will doing the m3 swap on.

The opportunity arose to go M5 and, well, it’s just so large for canyon fun stuff. When I’m not having fun it’s the X5 use case, so I really needed something to fill the ‘fun’ void. The e39M is just not that car. It is an amazing highway machine it’s sounds like tho!

The 330i, while fun and tossable, is just not enough. It needs a better heart.

I guess I just need to grow my stable - :-)

[oceansize]

Agreed. And the seats are very nice, not sure what he's talking about, but everyone has different opinions.

I should say it this way, the AMG seats are far superior to the e60 M5 seats, rather than saying the e60s are particularly bad.

[oceansize]

I've never sat in a w204 so I don't know how the seats compare, but did you really hate the E60 seats that much? I love them personally. Way more adjustable and comfortable than my E46 seats. Like comparing a fluffy cloud to a rock lol.

The styling is subjective but I've always found the E60 M5 (specifically in LCI form) to be attractive. I will say that the "pedestrian" E60's look bad. 525, 535, 550's etc. all look pretty ugly to me (with some props going to M-sport variants). Maybe they just look too bland to me? I can't really say. The M5 has the perfect amount of aggressive styling, which makes it very attractive looking to me. But its all subjective.

If you ever get to drive a W204 C63 my comments will become clear with respect to the seats. They really are a much better seat for a four door “sports car”.

[maw1124]

If you ever get to drive a W204 C63 my comments will become clear with respect to the seats. They really are a much better seat for a four door “sports car”.

MB AMG seats are on a different planet to anything I’ve seen from BMW except (to keep it on topic) the E39M seats in Extended Leather. Hell, my ‘92 500E came stock with some of the best Recaro seats I’ve ever experienced (the worst Recaros being in a CTS-V).

maw

[oceansize]

I'd hope this would be the case, and I'm sure it is for some, though I've also seen a lot of the opposite (i.e. "yeah it's great and all but it's so ugly" or "yeah it's not as good a driver but it's so much prettier" etc.).

Isn’t that most of the forum? Look at the current M3, the darn thing is an absolute monster, just a monster. I drove the manual two months ago in Chattanooga and jeebus what a car, and yet….

Which is why I say if I’m going with a not pretty but awesome BMW then it’s that one. Interior is seriously nice to boot. I defy anyone to drive that car and not have their mind blown.