Trying to decide: e46 M3 vs F82 M4 vs 997.2

[Icecream]

Too far out of my price range

Ah, yeah, gonna be high miles for anything near these other cars.

[t44tq]

BUT I already have my E46 and I am looking to get a sedan with a dct/dsg as a daily that my wife can drive it without hassle as well. So in that case an RS3 could be an option. I am still deciding between that and an E90. I currently have a B8 A4 avant. It's slow but comfortable and nice. I'm just looking for a fast and modern upgrade to that. After experiencing launch control in an RS3 I can assure you it is not a boring car, at least when you're putting the hammer down.

If you're going to get something that has no feel like a video game, then go ahead, get the RS3. Steering feel is bad, FWD based chassis is not ideal, transverse engine is not ideal. If you're talking about straight line speed, they're totally slow compared to the 5.5L biturbo V8 AMGs and even more the V-12 biturbo AMGs.

I would look at Cadillacs before any Audi unless you must have AWD. The ATS-V, 2nd/3rd gen CTS-V, and the Blackwings are quite good in their driving experience (not talking about their build quality, prestige, materials choice, etc.).

[t44tq]

Can the C2S be as fun on the street as the e46 M3?

Another point of comparison here, the steering in my e39 M5 feels more enjoyable to me the M3 did. I love being able to change the weight in sport mode, but I honestly prefer the lighter weight because I have shoulder issues. The on center feel is infinitely better and seems more connected. If I moved the wheel even a few mm I could feel the car start to change direction whereas the M3 I could hardly tell the wheel was doing anything.

Now this makes no sense- the recirculating ball steering in the E39 M5 isn't as precise nor does it have as much feel as the E46 M3's rack and pinion steering. If your M3 is that bad, you probably have old supension bushings, maybe need an alignment, new tie rod ends, steering column bushing is bad, etc.

The 997.2 is fun to drive, for sure. I think they're great cars.

[t44tq]

GTR.
Did this come up already?

GTR drives like a video game- zero feel.

[Icecream]

GTR drives like a video game- zero feel.

I have heard this before but without having driven one, I can't say how exaggerated that statement is. All I know is it is a very capable car, makes alot of drivetrain noises and sounds like a pretty raw experience. Can't imagine it's not an amazing car to drive.

[Jickel180]

GTR drives like a video game- zero feel.

Spoken like someone who hasn't driven one. The GTR has a ton of control feel through the wheel and pedals - more than any F8x BMW that's for sure.

[Aeko]

Now this makes no sense- the recirculating ball steering in the E39 M5 isn't as precise nor does it have as much feel as the E46 M3's rack and pinion steering. If your M3 is that bad, you probably have old supension bushings, maybe need an alignment, new tie rod ends, steering column bushing is bad, etc.

The 997.2 is fun to drive, for sure. I think they're great cars.

To be honest I wondered if the rack was bad in that M3. It just had zero steering feel. I replaced the control arms and bushings. Tie rods were tight, steering column disc replaced, car tracked straight and had no excessive wear indication on the front tires. The feel was similar to my e46 330ci (non ZHP yellow tag) but a bit heavier because I was running 255 squared on it. I did drive it with 225 fronts and I don't think it made much of a difference. It almost felt kind of like the shitty progressive rack in the e36 m3.

I test drove a 997.1 auto because it was the only one close by I could find. Honestly, it gave me about the same amount of "fun" feeling as my M3 did... but at a lot steeper price. Not sure I can justify the price difference that but it handled and drove pretty well. AFAIK the 997.2 is exactly the same steering wise to the 997.1, correct?

Still trying to find an e90 M3 and Mach 1 to drive. Most used dealers are only open during my working hours so trying to line up a time to test drive is tricky.

I did stop by a dealer that had an e90 M3 sedan (no test drives) and it wasn't too bad looking in person, I'll confirm. Not my favorite but not terrible. The interior is decent enough I'll try to find one to give it a shot and see if I really like it.

[t44tq]

Comparing a GTR to an F80 isn't saying much- we're in an E46 M3 forum, why are you not comparing it to the E46 M3?

OP- if you feel that the E46 M3 had poor feel, then all of the cars you mention are not going to improve much and more likely, will be far worse. You need to look at much lighter cars if your impression was that the E46 M3 had zero feel. Start looking at Lotus Elise/Exige, longhood 911s, Miata. I've never driven an Alfa 4C, but that might be something to consider as well.

High curb weight, electric power assist steering, super-wide tires, all of these will make the steering feel bad. I noticed when I went from stock tire configuration to 265 square, the steering feel suffered quite a bit.

[oceansize]

OP- if you feel that the E46 M3 had poor feel, then all of the cars you mention are not going to improve much and more likely, will be far worse. You need to look at much lighter cars if your impression was that the E46 M3 had zero feel. Start looking at Lotus Elise/Exige, longhood 911s, Miata. I've never driven an Alfa 4C, but that might be something to consider as well.

High curb weight, electric power assist steering, super-wide tires, all of these will make the steering feel bad. I noticed when I went from stock tire configuration to 265 square, the steering feel suffered quite a bit.

In thinking about it I agree with this. Definitely splitting hairs when we are talking about steering "feel" on all these high powered modern and semi-modern cars. I've driven a 4c (a car dealer friend local to me had one) and it is a complete go cart but I would just stick with a Miata and add a little power rather than incur everything Alfa ownership brings along. I will say the owner of the 4c had no problems under his ownership but he didn't drive it often either.

[Aeko]

t44tq,

You might be right since I keep thinking back to how much I liked the GR86 steering. Other than the super slow ratio I did like the steering in my e36 328i as well. The main issue is as much as I like the e36 style and comparable simplicity to modern cars, the interior quality just feels abysmal to me. The dash is very fisher-price IMO. I'm kind of surprised I like the e39 M5 steering as much as I do, though.

Thinking about it now, the first 10 years or more I spent driving it was always in a vehicle with highly boosted steering (mostly trucks) so that may have really thrown off my expectations. I wouldn't say any of those vehicles had great feel, just to be clear.

All that being said maybe I should try some of the lighter offerings like a 1M just to try it. Has anyone DCT swapped a 1M? A quick Google search turns up nothing. Maybe a 135i?

For a while I also lusted after the Euro e36 M3. I wonder if one with a ZHP rack would change my mind enough to ignore the interior.

[stephen]

t44tq,

You might be right since I keep thinking back to how much I liked the GR86 steering. Other than the super slow ratio I did like the steering in my e36 328i as well. The main issue is as much as I like the e36 style and comparable simplicity to modern cars, the interior quality just feels abysmal to me. The dash is very fisher-price IMO. I'm kind of surprised I like the e39 M5 steering as much as I do, though.

Thinking about it now, the first 10 years or more I spent driving it was always in a vehicle with highly boosted steering (mostly trucks) so that may have really thrown off my expectations. I wouldn't say any of those vehicles had great feel, just to be clear.

All that being said maybe I should try some of the lighter offerings like a 1M just to try it. Has anyone DCT swapped a 1M? A quick Google search turns up nothing. Maybe a 135i?

For a while I also lusted after the Euro e36 M3. I wonder if one with a ZHP rack would change my mind enough to ignore the interior.

My vote is euro M3. E36 steering with fresh front suspension, E34 u joint, and good summer tires is sublime.

[01SG]

I think every enthusiast car of the past decade has been brought up here. I think parameters need to be refined: rwd or awd, turbo or Na, autocross capable or comfortable..May I add the Aston Martin V8 Vantage, or that Maserati coupe, if comfort is a priority.

The E46 steering feel is only okay, and the E36 is definitely much better. But the E36 automatic has to be a disappointment. That car needs a manual.

A 135 would handle, but you lose the engine character.

[t44tq]

All that being said maybe I should try some of the lighter offerings like a 1M just to try it. Has anyone DCT swapped a 1M? A quick Google search turns up nothing. Maybe a 135i?

For a while I also lusted after the Euro e36 M3. I wonder if one with a ZHP rack would change my mind enough to ignore the interior.

Lighter would be sub 3000 lbs. Properly light would be sub 2500 lbs. or better yet, sub 2000 lbs. 1M isn't light. Try a '99 Porsche 996 early build, a 996 GT3 or a Boxster/Cayman 986/987. Or as I said previously, get a longnose 911 and have it hot-rodded- they are properly light. I have experience with a '70 911T with a 3.2 Carrera engine- works great when you're sub 2500 lbs. with 230 hp.

I don't like turbocharged power delivery, so I would recommend against it- the E46 is pretty nice with the 6 throttle bodies.

Go drive a ND Miata with proper suspension and tell me that isn't fun to drive. Flyin Miata V8 conversion on the ND would be pretty fantastic.

I didn't get it until I owned one- had a '90 Miata. Lightness trumps all. (not just Miata, but Lotus, etc.) Go Turo a Miata for a week in good weather and I think even with a relatively stock suspension, you'll get it. There's a damn good reason why the McLaren F1 and the GMA T.50 are sub 2600 lbs. It's much easier to make a good responsive chassis and suspension when you're not straddled with tons of weight.

[repoman89]

Go drive a ND Miata with proper suspension and tell me that isn't fun to drive.

Or the ugly duckling NC, better yet. The ND suffers from the same EPS syndrome as most modern cars. Mazda’s implementation certainly isn’t terrible but still leaves a lot to be desired vs the previous gen, IMO. I agree with the general point that a Miata is more fun in more situations than almost anything.

[t44tq]

Or the ugly duckling NC, better yet. The ND suffers from the same EPS syndrome as most modern cars. Mazda’s implementation certainly isn’t terrible but still leaves a lot to be desired vs the previous gen, IMO. I agree with the general point that a Miata is more fun in more situations than almost anything.

I didn't mention the NC because it seems to be hated by a bunch of non-Miata people. I personally prefer the NC2/3 as a starting point- 2.5L Duratec w/ cams, supercharger, Ohlins, BBFW rollbar, seats, harnesses, lightweight wheels and it's still cheaper than an Elise/Exige and less fragile.