AP Racing, Freaky Parts, 996, Cooling? School me on BBK to help pad consumption

[Pklauser]

As I continue to learn in HPDE and carry more speed into braking zones, I am chewing through brakes. I'm currently running DTC-70s on the "FCP Brake Special", and I'm going through a set of front pads every event. If I get a lot of track time at one event, I won't even make it through the whole thing on the same set.

A track friend suggested I try, and provided, some temperature paint. I put some on the brake pad packing plate that's visible through the wheel. According to the paint, the backing plate is reaching 1400F+. DTC-70's optimal range is 800F-1200F with a "min/max" of 400F-1600F. Unclear if I'm over the 1600F mark, since the paint doesn't read that high, but safe to say heat is not helping my situation.

Unfortunately, unlike the CSL Airbox, or Supersprint headers, there doesn't seem to be a de facto brake setup that people have converged on with these cars, or at least that I'm aware of. This thread by Maxhouse97 gets into a similar predicament that he had, but it doesn't appear there was a satisfactory resolution.

Chatting with some folks at the track, I know several BRZ/86 guys that are really happy with their AP Racing setups, but I don't ever see any BMW guys running them. I know there used to be the PFC setup back in the day, which a lot of folks still have, but alas, it's dead. Does anyone here have any experience with the AP Racing kit?

Then there are the "budget" options:

• The not-so-documented Freaky Parts Brembos: https://freakyparts.co.uk/collections/bmw-e46-m3-brakes
• The well-documented 996 setup: https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/m...bbk-conversion

Between the budget options, I'd probably go Freaky Parts just to avoid needing to rebuild old calipers. I imagine heat capacity between them is similar as they're both 4-piston, using the same 345mm rotors.

And finally: cooling. Does the hivemind think that no matter what, I'll need to suck it up and add some hose? I feel as though for every "add hose" post, there's another about the hose sucks and over cools your brakes 🤷♂️. Ideally I would love to avoid needing to put on and take off the hose for track days, but if buying an expensive brake kit is still going to require me to run more ducting, then I may as well start there with the current brakes. Fwiw, AP Racing says not to add more ducting with their kit, but who's to say that's actually true in practice.

[Sharocks]

If you're trying to use FCP warranties, stick with the 996 conversion and understand that the pad selection is sorta limited on FCP.

Also using the stock semi floating CSL rotors has it's limits.

I like the idea of the Megane setup better but TBH because it's slightly newer, but you would do better with a dedicated kit even used.

You can find a Brembo kit for around 1500ish used and rebuild what you need and go from there.

It's more than enough and you can learn with it.

The car doesn't need THAT much brake, it's not that heavy, what tires are you running btw?

Maybe lack of confidence in grip is making you brake harder and/or earlier?

Stock brake ducting is adequate, unless it's a dedicated race car.

I know of a few folks running the Essex kit and they love it, costly but you get what you pay for.

[Pklauser]

The FCP selection seems pretty dynamic too. The 996 DTC-70s were gone for awhile, but appear to be back...for now.

Curious where you're seeing Brembo kits coming up used for around $1500, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

Good ask, I'm on Hankook RS4s.

Totally open to the idea that it's a technique issue, but I haven't received feedback from my instructors that I'm over braking, and I'm fairly confident in my pace. For context, I have about 40 days on track in the last two years and have started instructing for SCCA based on instructor recommendations. Not a ton of time in the grand scheme of things, but wanted to share that background.

I haven't yet removed my backing plates, which it sounds like I should probably do. Do people usually remove them wholesale or chop them up to keep some protection for the ball joints?

[repoman89]

The AP racing kit is the dream, but yeah it’s pricy. I’m happy with the 996 kit on my car and rotating between FCP OEM Textar pads for the street and DS1.11 pads for track. So far they’re lasting me 35-40ish sessions and the feel is excellent. Haven’t removed my backing plates yet but I’m going to this spring, and also wrap the ball joints as in this article https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/im...s-of-the-trade

[Nate047]

*edit* @Pklauser dried to DM you but wouldn't let me

I'm kind of circling the drain overthinking this same situation, I assume you have stock brake calipers currently?

First point I make is that no two people agree on this subject. Like you said there is no "go to" solution that everyone likes. So I can only share some info I have gathered, I'm not an expert but I have been looking into this a lot lately so take it with a grain of salt.

Post 09/2002 build date / MK60 car:
996/986 calipers are pretty good, slightly more rear bias than stock. I would probably do this since it's easy. These calipers are getting more expensive though, the early pages of that long 996 caliper thread have prices that simply do not exist anymore.
Megane RS / Freaky Parts have symmetrical 40mm pistons so you may experience tapered pad wear. These use D1001 pads which you can get Volvo S60/V60R pads for on FCP. Most people pair these with 996 rears, and you can get Hawk DTC-60 pads for both applications. These Megane RS calipers are cheaper, brand new, and you can shop around to Germany and Poland as well if shipping and duty is too much form the UK. I paid an extra $80 ior so in duty upon delivery when I bought my kit from Freaky Parts. There is a company in Poland called K System Pro that makes a similar kit to Freaky Parts, shipping may or may not be less. I have a set of their E36 Megane RS brackets and they actually appear to be much nicer and more thoughtfully machined than the Freaky Parts brackets, which are sloppy.

Pre 09/02 / MK20 car:
Stock bias is noticeably more towards the rear. Considering doing the Aston Martin DB9 retrofit in light of this which is will move the bias forward. These calipers have 40mm and 44mm pistons so tapered pad wear is unlikely. They also use D1001 pads, calipers are more expensive and hard to come by. Brackets are only made by one company and they will not ship to the US currently. For a post 09/2002 / MK60 car, unsure if the bias will move too far forward for favorability. That's probably subjective.

AP / proper Brembos / Alcon / etc... All are "better" solutions but cost you double, tripple, more in some cases. Might not be street friendly. All monoblock calipers, be it 996, Megane, or Alcon or big boy Brembo, can theoretically flex more than a two piece bolted caliper. Will that matter on a track day car doing 20 or 30 minutes at a time vs a race car doing 2 or 3 hour stints? Probably not but maybe? Stock 345mm rotors can only go so far, but these are fairly cheap and you can use the FCP hack.

Heat wise, do some paint on the side of the rotor as well as the pad, and you can get stickers for the calipers. If you are really overheating, and or feeling slop in the pedal etc... You can add a brake ducting setup, and tape half or all of the vent off if the cooling proves is too much on any given day or track scenario.

[liam821]

I have an AP racing kit on my track car and they're pretty incredible. I went from replacing pads and rotors every other weekend to a set of rotors/pads lasting an entire season or maybe two! APs do not have rubber piston seals like basically every other manufacturer, so I wouldn't recommend them for a daily driver for all-weather motoring, but for a track car, they're incredible.

One thing that really helps the AP is the pad thickness, they're 0.80" thick - there is so much meat on the pads which helps distribute heat and of course, they just last forever. I've also found their j-hook rotors to be top-notch, mine has 60 vanes for cooling.

[lcrain]

IMO, the big advantage of a race inspired bbk is the pads are much bigger and thus will last longer. My experience is based on a car that is significantly lighter than stock (2970ish lbs with driver and 1/3 tank). I use a PFC front bbk with stock rear and a set of pfc 11 pads will last me an entire season on the front. They are just massive pads. Obviously a lighter car will go through fewer consumables, but the surface area/thickness of a bigger pad will offset some of the increase in cost. Anecdotally my car had proper brake ducts to backing plates which I have recently removed and I have no brake fade issues.

[SQ13]

The AP racing kit is the dream, but yeah it’s pricy. I’m happy with the 996 kit on my car and rotating between FCP OEM Textar pads for the street and DS1.11 pads for track. So far they’re lasting me 35-40ish sessions and the feel is excellent. Haven’t removed my backing plates yet but I’m going to this spring, and also wrap the ball joints as in this article https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/im...s-of-the-trade

What tires do you run and do you have brake ducts?

[repoman89]

What tires do you run and do you have brake ducts?

Square 265 section RS4. No ducts, just punched out the plastic blockers for airflow in the wheel well. IR thermometer says discs are ~600F in the paddock after a cool down lap. I’m certainly not the fastest but not the slowest driver either. Solid intermediate .. advanced drivers may have a different experience. But they also probably brake less

[Pklauser]

I'm kind of circling the drain overthinking this same situation, I assume you have stock brake calipers currently?

Yep, stock non-zcp calipers currently. Also good call out on the symmetric pistons in the Freaky Parts kit. I just saw some 996 front calipers sell on eBay for $360, I'm sure I'll regret missing that. My main concern with the 996 route is that by the time I buy the calipers, get them machined, adapters, rotors, pads, etc etc I'm a little over $2K, when the AP kit is right there at $3K. Granted the $2K 996 is front/rear, while the AP kit would just be front. I'd rather buy once and cry once than keep messing around with brakes on this car.

I have an AP racing kit on my track car and they're pretty incredible. I went from replacing pads and rotors every other weekend to a set of rotors/pads lasting an entire season or maybe two! APs do not have rubber piston seals like basically every other manufacturer, so I wouldn't recommend them for a daily driver for all-weather motoring, but for a track car, they're incredible.

This is what I like to hear. How many events per season are we talking and what rotor size are you running?

Re piston seals: how critical are they for a car that has its brakes frequently inspected, cleaned, etc and isn't driven in road salt. My M3 is not my daily, but I don't want to be restricted in taking it on trips.

[zivagolee]

I run the Essex CP8350 front and CP5144 rears with DS1.11 pads all around. I can run 40 minute sessions at thill east without feeling like any fade and i'm a heavy braker
I fortunately found a great deal on the fronts so I couldn't pass it up -- they do have NVH so for a street car, it might be noisy for your tastes but I only take the car to the track now.

[SQ13]

Square 265 section RS4. No ducts, just punched out the plastic blockers for airflow in the wheel well. IR thermometer says discs are ~600F in the paddock after a cool down lap. I’m certainly not the fastest but not the slowest driver either. Solid intermediate .. advanced drivers may have a different experience. But they also probably brake less

Nice, that sounds perfect to me! Now that I’m doing W2W endurance racing, DEs in my M3 aren’t going to be done with the goal of driving the car 10/10s and putting down the absolute fastest lap times possible. Just wanna safely enjoy the car and have fun.

[Nate047]

Yep, stock non-zcp calipers currently. Also good call out on the symmetric pistons in the Freaky Parts kit. I just saw some 996 front calipers sell on eBay for $360, I'm sure I'll regret missing that. My main concern with the 996 route is that by the time I buy the calipers, get them machined, adapters, rotors, pads, etc etc I'm a little over $2K, when the AP kit is right there at $3K. Granted the $2K 996 is front/rear, while the AP kit would just be front. I'd rather buy once and cry once than keep messing around with brakes on this car.

TBH I would still not hesitate to run the Megane calipers if I had a post 09/2002 car. It's a wash with benefit / drawback vs 996. Might get tapered pad wear, vs more shift in brake bias. I think either way it's gonna be an upgrade over stock calipers, and neither of those things are a big deal especially considering the FCP life hack. If you're paying full price for pads and rotors, that changes everything IMO. Obviously all the 345mm Brembo retrofit options are a compromise vs a proper BBK.

I will sell you my new unused Freaky Parts kit if you're interested. Still can't DM you for some reason but just LMK

[Pklauser]

TBH I would still not hesitate to run the Megane calipers if I had a post 09/2002 car. It's a wash with benefit / drawback vs 996. Might get tapered pad wear, vs more shift in brake bias. I think either way it's gonna be an upgrade over stock calipers, and neither of those things are a big deal especially considering the FCP life hack. If you're paying full price for pads and rotors, that changes everything IMO. Obviously all the 345mm Brembo retrofit options are a compromise vs a proper BBK.

I will sell you my new unused Freaky Parts kit if you're interested. Still can't DM you for some reason but just LMK

I do have an MK60 car fwiw. Yea I'll need to think on this a little, I'll DM you. The FCP hack on the Megane calipers will push me towards DTC-60s instead of 70s, so I better be dropping temps more than 100F or I'll just be in the same relative spot temperature wise lol.

I run the Essex CP8350 front and CP5144 rears with DS1.11 pads all around. I can run 40 minute sessions at thill east without feeling like any fade and i'm a heavy braker
I fortunately found a great deal on the fronts so I couldn't pass it up -- they do have NVH so for a street car, it might be noisy for your tastes but I only take the car to the track now.

That's awesome to hear. Do you think the NVH is more due to the caliper or the pads? My stock calipers are noisy if I put some aggressive pads in there.

EDIT: Oh yea, and the other fun thing worth mentioning: I'm currently rocking 17's ET35. Printed out the templates for the AP Racing and Megane calipers and it looks like I'll be able to clear if I run a 12mm spacer in the front, similar to what's required for the 996 kit. Unclear how that will effect my fender clearance yet though. I run 255s with near -3 degrees of front camber, so hopefully it'll work out. I'll do a test next time I'm swapping wheels around.

[repoman89]

996 kit has plenty of clearance with 9.5 ET35 depending on the wheel. My BW TA16s have like an inch between the spokes and caliper at the closest point.