AP Racing, Freaky Parts, 996, Cooling? School me on BBK to help pad consumption

[Pklauser]

996 kit has plenty of clearance with 9.5 ET35 depending on the wheel. My BW TA16s have like an inch between the spokes and caliper at the closest point.

I should've been more specific, I'm running Arc-8s, which are notoriously bad on clearance 😬. I hadn't realized BW's TA5R came in 17" though, good to know!

Unsure why I didn't think of this earlier, but on my technique potentially being a problem: I do have a video from just yesterday at Summit Point Shenandoah. If anyone sees anything I'm doing wrong, braking or otherwise, super open to feedback:

[zivagolee]

That's awesome to hear. Do you think the NVH is more due to the caliper or the pads? My stock calipers are noisy if I put some aggressive pads in there.

EDIT: Oh yea, and the other fun thing worth mentioning: I'm currently rocking 17's ET35. Printed out the templates for the AP Racing and Megane calipers and it looks like I'll be able to clear if I run a 12mm spacer in the front, similar to what's required for the 996 kit. Unclear how that will effect my fender clearance yet though. I run 255s with near -3 degrees of front camber, so hopefully it'll work out. I'll do a test next time I'm swapping wheels around.

It's a combination of pads and no anti rattle plate. The pads are extra thick (20mm) when new so that helps.. maybe the anti knock back springs help as well. Fully floating rotors can also make it noisy as well.

I have my calipers behind Apex Arc8 18x9.5 ET35. I don't need a spacer in front but I add a tiny 3mm or one just to add little more space. NT01 275s with -3.5 degrees of front camber.

[Pklauser]

It's a combination of pads and no anti rattle plate. The pads are extra thick (20mm) when new so that helps.. maybe the anti knock back springs help as well. Fully floating rotors can also make it noisy as well.

Appreciate that analysis. I don't run the rattle clips on the stockers since I have the brass guide bushings, and my pads do clack around, so I'm at least used to that 😅

[Wernd]

I should've been more specific, I'm running Arc-8s, which are notoriously bad on clearance 😬. I hadn't realized BW's TA5R came in 17" though, good to know!

Unsure why I didn't think of this earlier, but on my technique potentially being a problem: I do have a video from just yesterday at Summit Point Shenandoah. If anyone sees anything I'm doing wrong, braking or otherwise, super open to feedback:

What tires are you on in the video and what size? A couple of corners you turn in abruptly and you could use more of the track width which would also help solve your turn in. Other than that it looks like a very good lap. How's understeer? Seems like the rear of your car is super stable.

[Pklauser]

What tires are you on in the video and what size? A couple of corners you turn in abruptly and you could use more of the track width which would also help solve your turn in. Other than that it looks like a very good lap. How's understeer? Seems like the rear of your car is super stable.

255/40R17 RS4s. I'll keep an eye out for that, thanks! Understeer is fine (I think). The rear can move around a little, and I am able to get some slip angle, but my confidence on Shenandoah isn't super high with all those walls really close by.

[r4dr]

Brembo sells a Pista kit for the E46 M3 front axle now, too. 355x35mm ring, common race caliper pad shape, Brembo quality.

I get that FCP replacements are free, but if the flip side of that is you have to run a Hawk pad... man, I value my track time way too much for that. The Megane uses a D1001 pad shape which is common on "lower-end" applications, so pads would be cheaper than a Porsche-specific pad shape. Here's a list on Zeckhausen: https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/a...keywords=d1001 (I'd be inclined to run the PFC11 on this list).

Lots of info already thrown around in the thread, but the only point I want to add is that you should buy rotor paint to determine whether YOU need brake cooling, or not. The correct answer is "it depends." This might also help you figure out if you're going beyond the comfortable range of your race pads, which would cause pad fade and accelerated wear.

[Casa de Mesa]

Sorta sidebar: Shenandoah is a heck of a track. Used to race there in NASA American Iron and they stopped hosting races there. The cars were catching air on the back straight over that crest and people were bending shock/strut towers. 😬 Fun course though.

You're not doing anything overtly wrong that can be seen on the vid - nice driving.

[MasterC17]

The Essex/AP Racing brake kits are the best brakes I've personally ever driven. I had a 9660/372mm kit and the feel was incredible. That being said, they are very expensive.

I currently have a StopTech STR-60/380mm kit on that same car and they are also very good, though not quite the AP setup.

Personally, I strongly dislike Hawk brake pads. Maybe that's part of your problem. I've also experienced extremely quick wear when using them. Raybestos makes a great brake pad IMO, the ST43 is phenomenal. Pagid is also a great manufacturer. Carbotech/G-LOC are good as long as you can live with some noise.

[George Hill]

Just a data point to compare to my car weights 3100# without me, makes 300whp and will go 141mph at CoTA. I run 330 brakes front and rear with DTC60s and no dust shields or ducts. I have at least 10 weekends on the fronts and I am changing them tonight so I don't worry about the next event. I would think if you are going through a set of pads a weekend with that setup there is something else to consider whether it being a mechanical item or technique.

[Wernd]

I would agree 100%. If you're going through a set of pads in a weekend you either have junk pads (happened to me once at COTA) or your braking technique needs some help. Not riding with you to give feedback I would say to focus less on the last absolute moment at which you can hit the brakes and focus more on what the maximum mph you can carry prior to apex so that you're still on line and can get on the gas early. It will make you push your brake point back but you'll hopefully need to slow the car less which will in turn obviously help your pad situation but more importantly your lap times

[Pklauser]

Thanks for the input all, really appreciate it.

Another thing I'm considering is that by running DTC-70s in the rear, I may not be getting them up to temp enough to be effective. The paint said my rear pads were below 678F, which would put them below the optimal range of 800F for that compound. I wonder if that's then putting more braking on the fronts, wearing them more quickly?

I'm going to try a less aggressive pad in the rear next event and see what happens while I continue to ponder how many thousands of dollars a do or do not want to spend on a different brake setup.

[Casa de Mesa]

Hey Pklauser I'm not sure what happened to some of the text/first paragraph in my post above. What I asked was...

Do you only run Shenandoah or does this happen at other circuits as well? I haven't run Shenandoah in years, but remember it being rough on brakes. Like CMP in Kershaw before they rerouted a couple corners.

My primary point was - Shenandoah can be rough on equipment.

[Pklauser]

Hey Pklauser I'm not sure what happened to some of the text/first paragraph in my post above. What I asked was...

Do you only run Shenandoah or does this happen at other circuits as well? I haven't run Shenandoah in years, but remember it being rough on brakes. Like CMP in Kershaw before they rerouted a couple corners.

My primary point was - Shenandoah can be rough on equipment.

It's definitely less pronounced at other circuits. Just ran Dominion last weekend and after two days I have maybe 1/2-1/3 pad left. I'm also burning up the outside front-right pad more than any others 🤔

The Essex/AP Racing brake kits are the best brakes I've personally ever driven. I had a 9660/372mm kit and the feel was incredible. That being said, they are very expensive.

I currently have a StopTech STR-60/380mm kit on that same car and they are also very good, though not quite the AP setup.

What made you switch away from the AP kit?

Some updates here: ran HT-10s on the rear last weekend at Dominion. To be honest, didn't feel very different. The roughness of Dominion definitely showed me that I need suspension, these H&R springs have me on the bumpstops under braking and any undulation in the track sends me into ABS, but back to the topic at hand:

Played around with some sheet aluminum today, inspired by Vorshlag. Their plates are mounted to the control arm, but after doing some playing around, I actually think it makes more sense for the plate to be mounted to the knuckle. Here's how things sit right now. I think the plate can come down slightly, or at least should probably be trimmed on the top so it's not pushing air against the surface of the rotor. This setup is painfully simple, which gives me confidence in it not causing me problems on track, though we'll have to see how well that bend in the aluminum holds up at 130+.



Initial scientific aerodynamic testing performed by me blowing at the fog-light area with my spot blower has air pushing out of the rotor vanes that I can feel with my hand. Definitely didn't have that before this plate, so there should be at least some cooling improvement here!

[Estoril]

I should've been more specific, I'm running Arc-8s, which are notoriously bad on clearance 😬. I hadn't realized BW's TA5R came in 17" though, good to know!

Unsure why I didn't think of this earlier, but on my technique potentially being a problem: I do have a video from just yesterday at Summit Point Shenandoah. If anyone sees anything I'm doing wrong, braking or otherwise, super open to feedback:

Respectfully, your Shenandoah line and braking technique isn't optimal. From the video alone and without knowing your tires and not being in the right seat - your line is often early. This is tightening up your turns on an already twisty track. It 'appears' that you are braking earlier and longer than I would coach from the right seat. I only watched the video once, but if I was instructing with you, I would make you faster, and I think somewhat smoother. I don't know your tires, but it appears you are over-braking for T-11 and possibly T-20. With a different line in T-20 I think you'd be braking somewhat less. Possibly other turns as well. Your line in T-17 is the inside light car (Miata) line. Move left side tires (most of your grip) to the black patch in the center and you'll be faster. You may be able to brake more efficiently before the Karussel and release a bit earlier - but I'd need to be in-car.

Are you using an Instructor?

[Pklauser]

Respectfully, your Shenandoah line and braking technique isn't optimal. From the video alone and without knowing your tires and not being in the right seat - your line is often early. This is tightening up your turns on an already twisty track. It 'appears' that you are braking earlier and longer than I would coach from the right seat. I only watched the video once, but if I was instructing with you, I would make you faster, and I think somewhat smoother. I don't know your tires, but it appears you are over-braking for T-11 and possibly T-20. With a different line in T-20 I think you'd be braking somewhat less. Possibly other turns as well. Your line in T-17 is the inside light car (Miata) line. Move left side tires (most of your grip) to the black patch in the center and you'll be faster. You may be able to brake more efficiently before the Karussel and release a bit earlier - but I'd need to be in-car.

Are you using an Instructor?

Appreciate these pointers! I've had very little instruction at Shenandoah, and wasn't being instructed in this video, so definitely have some to learn. Interesting on T11 and T17, what you're suggesting are things I played around with but found them slower when comparing using my Catalyst. What groups do you drive Shenandoah with? Would be great to get out there at the same time and talk shop.