S54 Build Decisions: Turbo vs. High-Revving NA – Seeking Experienced Opinions

[jvit27]

When was your S54 built? Time marches on, ideas are tried and improved upon. Partee just made a stroked S54 that on their dyno does over 400whp and they are limiting it to something like 8000rpm. Think about if they turned it up another 500 or more RPM.

If you put a good cylinder head on a 3.2L S52 what is the real difference then? Solid lifter convert the S52 and convert to buckets on the S54 and then add ITBs to the S52 and a good header. They are pretty similar so it doesn't seem to me to be to unrealistic of a claim.

My point is that like you said its all in the cylinder head, cams and tuning. If you just want to poopoo on their ideas because you don't believe it that's fine, but they are doing it and backing it up with data. Even if the data is 10% skewed (because all dynos are different) its still impressive.

And if they are turning them a bunch of RPM that is what the OP wants. He didn't say he wants it to make max torque at 3500rpm and still spin, he said he wants RPM. I'm just offering another avenue. Whether you are on board or not thats fine...

Circa 2016, but the package is still the same if one were to get it done today. Mine could make more but it is still 11.5:1 with 288 cams, rev limit set to 8100. But even with more compression and 296 cam, we're talking maybe another 10-20whp. The 304 cam might get it to +25whp tops. Simply adding another 500rpm isn't the answer; you're passing the cams peak efficiency.

All those things are a waste of money on an S52. Sure it can be done (and has, many times). But those motors were measured in lifespans of hours, and somehow 'new ideas' (LOL) have yielded 30% more power?? Please. It's still a big air pump and has not gained some magic VE.
Let's not forget S52 bottom ends are known to rattle themselves apart when they sustain >7400rpm. But sure let's zing them to 9000. At that point you'll be 5x what a stock S54 with eBay headers costs to be at the same output. And it will still leave the S52 for dead because it actually makes power below 6000rpm.

Sorry but anyone claiming those numbers has manipulated the dyno.

Then there is this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CvqSPXWpBnH/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

I've known Pete for many years, and he is as honest as they come. 276whp is bang-on for a setup like that and I would not question that it's healthy. So tell me how ITB's can bring another 125whp.... see how absurd it sounds when you actually think critically?

[George Hill]

I've known Pete for many years, and he is as honest as they come. 276whp is bang-on for a setup like that and I would not question that it's healthy. So tell me how ITB's can bring another 125whp.... see how absurd it sounds when you actually think critically?

I didn't say the ITBs did it ALL. And as posted his ITB S52 makes 318whp, I highlighted it, but I guess you didn't see that.

So if his stock headed (i assume since they didnt note it being ported) S52 makes 318whp then a cylinder head with much better flow and more RPM could put out more... I think we are in agreement, no?

I know you don't want to actually look into the info I posted but click on those links and look at their products and the data they post.

And that brings us back to how an S52 with a similar total engine size (3.2L), a good cylinder head, the same induction setup, same/similar headers and similar cams not believable to make similar power as an S54 especially when revved higher?

It really doesn't matter to me whether you believe me or not, I appreciate the skepticism as I have it too. But for the money in something that turns a bunch of RPM as the OP requested it seems like something to investigate. Does it make the most sense? Maybe, maybe not, but neither does spending a bunch of money on an E46. At the end of the day the heart wants what the heart wants and if that's a bunch of RPM in package that may not be the best "all arounder" then it is what it is.

[jvit27]

I didn't say the ITBs did it ALL. And as posted his ITB S52 makes 318whp, I highlighted it, but I guess you didn't see that.

So if his stock headed (i assume since they didnt note it being ported) S52 makes 318whp then a cylinder head with much better flow and more RPM could put out more... I think we are in agreement, no?

I know you don't want to actually look into the info I posted but click on those links and look at their products and the data they post.

And that brings us back to how an S52 with a similar total engine size (3.2L), a good cylinder head, the same induction setup, same/similar headers and similar cams not believable to make similar power as an S54 especially when revved higher?

It really doesn't matter to me whether you believe me or not, I appreciate the skepticism as I have it too. But for the money in something that turns a bunch of RPM as the OP requested it seems like something to investigate. Does it make the most sense? Maybe, maybe not, but neither does spending a bunch of money on an E46. At the end of the day the heart wants what the heart wants and if that's a bunch of RPM in package that may not be the best "all arounder" then it is what it is.

I did see them and addressed previously. You ignored the rest of what I shared just to try and sow some doubt.

Even the big Sunbelt 290 cams with KK headers weren't cracking 300whp back in the day when these motors were competed with. So if you want to assume 318whp is on a stock head then i'll just stop right here and let your heart pipe dream because there's nothing more for me to say

[bmw m3 s50]

..

😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[bmw m3 s50]

Why would you want to turbo an e46 m3 when there are so many turbo m cars available at this point which were purpose built for turbos? I could understand setting up the e46 m3 with a turbo prior to the BMW turbo push, but why now?

Also 9,500 RPM limit? You would be lucky with a 8500RPM limit without damaging the motor long term.

[332]

IDK whats up with people making under 400whp, for a stroked s54. I understand many different options/variables. We have lots of stroker s54 cars where I live, even at 5700ft they are making 39xwhp.. yikes for our sea level guys. Few tips and tricks learned from them as well. IE, doing some minor head work on the exhaust ports. Dremel or the likes is good enough...

[George Hill]

I did see them and addressed previously. You ignored the rest of what I shared just to try and sow some doubt.

Hey I'm here to learn, you are acting like you know everything so I am asking honest questions. What did I ignore to try and sow some doubt? And what doubt am I trying to sow? All I said is 390whp from a stroker 9yrs ago means there is likely some room left on the table and comparing that to recent tech isn't always an apples to apples comparison. You are the one doubting anything, I think its completely plausible to spin an S52 a bunch of RPM. Will it live long? IDK, will a comparable S54 live longer? IDK either. But that isn't wasn't the OPs question. I think most of us are in agreement that a 9500RPM 420whp S54 is likely not gonna happen. So if that's off the table what are other options to reach that goal or get close? S52 at 9000 seems like its a viable option to consider if the RPM is the highlight.

Even the big Sunbelt 290 cams with KK headers weren't cracking 300whp back in the day when these motors were competed with. So if you want to assume 318whp is on a stock head then i'll just stop right here and let your heart pipe dream because there's nothing more for me to say

You are right, I asked Michon and he said it was a "mild" port and had a bunch of other work done and that power was made at 8200 RPM. He said there was some room left on the table in the cylinder heads and cams. Either way, your reference to back in the day big cams and KK headers weren't what this engine is making today with smaller cams. That's my point, just because it couldn't be done then doesn't mean it can't now. What's his engine going to do if you put those 290 cams in and a set of the KK headers?

I just like seeing people still being excited in these cars/engines and that development is still on going. Do I want an 9500rpm S54? lol no, but I love that someone else does.

[jvit27]

Hey I'm here to learn, you are acting like you know everything so I am asking honest questions. What did I ignore to try and sow some doubt? And what doubt am I trying to sow? All I said is 390whp from a stroker 9yrs ago means there is likely some room left on the table and comparing that to recent tech isn't always an apples to apples comparison. You are the one doubting anything, I think it's completely plausible to spin an S52 a bunch of RPM. Will it live long? IDK, will a comparable S54 live longer? IDK either. But that isn't wasn't the OPs question. I think most of us are in agreement that a 9500RPM 420whp S54 is likely not gonna happen. So if that's off the table what are other options to reach that goal or get close? S52 at 9000 seems like it's a viable option to consider if the RPM is the highlight.

Look, there were some smart guys racing these engines with big budgets who had them figured out long before the IG dudes came along and pretended it's never been done before. I'm really not trying to sound like a dick, I'm trying to convey to you that where there is hype there is smoke. I've been sharing specific numbers/cams/mods and what they actually made throughout the years on my own engines and friends; yet somehow you just continue to assume that with age these motors are just somehow flowing way more air and have yet to share a single way HOW. Newer standalone ECU's can control detonation better than they could 10-20 years ago but we are talking marginal gains here... you're talking about increases that literally only boost can add just because you want to believe there was something left on the table.

Like I said, there are intentional compromises made in my build. But fully built S54's set to absolute kill mode on race fuel will yield 430-450 at the wheels at 8500rpm.

You are right, I asked Michon and he said it was a "mild" port and had a bunch of other work done and that power was made at 8200 RPM. He said there was some room left on the table in the cylinder heads and cams. Either way, your reference to back in the day big cams and KK headers weren't what this engine is making today with smaller cams. That's my point, just because it couldn't be done then doesn't mean it can't now. What's his engine going to do if you put those 290 cams in and a set of the KK headers?

I just like seeing people still being excited in these cars/engines and that development is still on going. Do I want an 9500rpm S54? lol no, but I love that someone else does.

The question I'd ask is not what his engine will do, but what he makes his dyno say. Or how on earth does a 'mild port' flow enough CFM with a 276 cam to warrant revving 800-1000rpm higher than the 290 cam cars did? That's some serious port velocity - we're well past comparing to S54's, someone call in an S65 to testify! lol

[jvit27]

I Few tips and tricks learned from them as well. IE, doing some minor head work on the exhaust ports. Dremel or the likes is good enough...

Oh. my. god.

[9kracing]

This thread is pretty amazing.

[Estoril]

This thread is pretty amazing.

Especially considering that it could lead to winning the HPDE trophy.

[JeremyJames]

God damn, some of you guys are a tough crowd. Must it always come to this? The thread started off great and as you can see has ended in pure trash, what else is new though.

Lets reiterate the entire purpose of this thread and my inquiry since half of you clowns didn't read it in the first place, but came here to share your 100% unexperienced keyboard opinion...

I have an EXTRA operational S54 on an engine stand with a low mile 6spd transmission in my garage. My full intentions are to perform a rebuild on the engine from the ground up REGARDLESS of the route I take, before I started cracking into the rebuild, I was considering the different options that I have based on my end goal for the engine. I never effing said I was going to put it in my current E46M platform, or that I wanted to be a track superstar, or that your mom doesn't give that good of BJs. I just mentioned what I wanted to use the motor for boost or high RPM seeking real life experience from other alike gearheads.


I know every single thing that I need to know when I see a member with 5,000 post in 5 years slapping absolutely zero value. No life.

I mean, hash tag #internetlyfe, amirite? Go outside.


For those that added value and actual experience, I do appreciate you and your input.

[digger]

Look, there were some smart guys racing these engines with big budgets who had them figured out long before the IG dudes came along and pretended it's never been done before. I'm really not trying to sound like a dick, I'm trying to convey to you that where there is hype there is smoke. I've been sharing specific numbers/cams/mods and what they actually made throughout the years on my own engines and friends; yet somehow you just continue to assume that with age these motors are just somehow flowing way more air and have yet to share a single way HOW. Newer standalone ECU's can control detonation better than they could 10-20 years ago but we are talking marginal gains here... you're talking about increases that literally only boost can add just because you want to believe there was something left on the table.

Like I said, there are intentional compromises made in my build. But fully built S54's set to absolute kill mode on race fuel will yield 430-450 at the wheels at 8500rpm.




The question I'd ask is not what his engine will do, but what he makes his dyno say. Or how on earth does a 'mild port' flow enough CFM with a 276 cam to warrant revving 800-1000rpm higher than the 290 cam cars did? That's some serious port velocity - we're well past comparing to S54's, someone call in an S65 to testify! lol

Where are all the 450whp s54 dyno sheets?

[BMWfanz]

S54 on ESS is easiest way to have boosted S54. Building turbo or 9500RPM NA will require destrocked engine with bunch of high cost parts and it will be never reliable

[9kracing]

OP when you have some spare time give this a read. http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone/

"It was an expensive reminder that one needs to think (hard) before making any hair-brained decisions regarding rpm with any engine. You’d think that I’d have been old enough to know better, but……………...adrenaline can be a terrible thing."

It's about Honda engines, but it all still applies here. To do an all-motor build properly, requires someone who really knows the engine.

Anri on this site seems like he know the S54 like the back of his hand, if I was going to do a full S54 build I'd reach out to him.

Be prepared to spend some money though.