Vincebar vs. CMP Topside Reinforcement

[hsq]

Hey guys,

Wanted to know what your thoughts were on a Vincebar vs. CMP top side bar?

From what I have seen, the Vincebar is hidden vs. the CMP which is still visible? Are they both just as strong?

Also, which underside plates are best with them? I'm leaning towards the CMP underside plates but I think Vince makes plates as well? (https://www.facebook.com/PPRnDnews/) Would those go better with the Vincebar?

I'm leaning towards the Vincebar since I want the trunk space to be clean and not have the bar visible. I use the car as a daily and I mostly take the car out on back roads for some spirited driving.

Also, I know there is a thread about this as well, but wanted to know which shop in the LA area would best install these top bars (along with underside plates)? Thanks.

[2004LSB]

Both topside bars more or less serve the same functional purpose. The CMP does seem beefier and may be more applicable if your car was a dedicated track toy. For spirited driving on the street, I think the Vincebar is more than sufficient as it also helps keep stock aesthetics and retains full functionality of your trunk space.

For underside plates, I believe Redish Motorsports out of the UK offer the best solution; based on their experience, I believe they said that ideally you would still want to do weld-in plates as the plug welds help coalesce the numerous RACP layers into a much sturdier singular structure. Doing the epoxy on the underside plates only bonds them to the outermost layer. Some may argue that the epoxy method reduces the likelihood of corrosion; welding, if done properly, should last a VERY long time, especially if your car is gonna be in the hot and dry southwestern states. Additionally, for most shops this is a tried and true method as they've been doing this for years now with plenty of experience. Only until recently have some started venturing into using epoxies for adhesion of automotive sheet metals.

Will you be using Vince's front gusset cups as well? Ideally you would want to include this to complete the full RACP reinforcement.

I used numerous shops for my RACP bulletproofing. When I had my initial inspection done (around 2012....2013?), I had European Motor Works in Arcadia do the underside weld-in Turner plates. A few years later I followed Vince's development of his bar, and had Lang Racing in Irvine install the topside front gusset cups and bar via rivet and epoxy method (my car was the guinea pig for this method of installation!). Another year later, I took my car to TechCraft in Irwindale for a general inspection and they noticed a super tiny spot weld had popped along the rear driver's side wheel arch seam; I'm thinking this was here before I had the Turner plates put in. Overall I was very satisfied with the work from all three shops; TechCraft is probably going to be priced the most competitive of the three.

Good luck!

[hsq]

Awesome, thanks 2004LSB!

Yeah I'll get the front gusset cups as well. I'm leaning towards welding over epoxy.

Just to confirm what I'll need:

-Vincebar + Gusset Cups (Order through Vince)
-Redish V2 Plates https://www.redish-motorsport.com/Re...tPlateKit.html

-I'm assuming I should replace the rear bushings as well? Any recommendations or should I just stick with OEM to keep the stock feel?

Anything else I'm missing that will need to be replaced? Thanks.

[2004LSB]

Awesome, thanks 2004LSB!

Yeah I'll get the front gusset cups as well. I'm leaning towards welding over epoxy.

Just to confirm what I'll need:

-Vincebar + Gusset Cups (Order through Vince)
-Redish V2 Plates https://www.redish-motorsport.com/Re...tPlateKit.html

-I'm assuming I should replace the rear bushings as well? Any recommendations or should I just stick with OEM to keep the stock feel?

Anything else I'm missing that will need to be replaced? Thanks.

Yep that's all you'll need! Be sure to get the hardware from Vince as well (the 4 extended threaded rods). Double check with whichever shop you choose to perform the work to ensure they have the proper sized drill bits and cutting accessories; if not, Vince should be able to provide them too.

Depending on the mileage, age, and condition of your car, it is a good idea to service all the rear differential bushings (front bushing and 2 on the cover) and rear trailing arm bushings while everything is disassembled. I know it is gonna be a hefty bill, but this will save you a ton in labor costs since everything is taken apart now. You may also want to change out the input and output seals on the differential as they may start to leak given the age of our cars now.

The actual rear subframe bushings should last a pretty long time; if funds permit, may be a good idea to change them out. I'm approaching 100K on my car and they're still in great shape.

I would personally stick with all OE parts if this car sees any time on the street. For the rear trailing arm bushing, just get the Turner sealed monoball and that will be a permanent fix👍. It increases the NHV very slightly, but definitely well worth it as it improves the handling tremendously. TechCraft or Lang will probably be your best bet for this job since European Motor Works may not do the Vince bar installation.

[LeeForst]

I just had the Vince Bar done with the Skinz as well. Had Epoxy/Rivets done on plates and then they ended up recommending to weld the bar in. Also, had CMP solid bushings installed on Ian's recommendation and they are totally street-able. I feel it's bullet proofed
it's pretty much a track car only these days

[BMWahba]

I just had the Vince Bar done with the Skinz as well. Had Epoxy/Rivets done on plates and then they ended up recommending to weld the bar in. Also, had CMP solid bushings installed on Ian's recommendation and they are totally street-able. I feel it's bullet proofed - check out the pics of their work for reference - promise ... it's not a virus :

https://xoxocar.com/inspection.aspx?...2d5&sb=def&b=1

it's pretty much a track car only these days

+1 for vincebar here as well. The CMP kit is great too. Between the two I just preferred retaining a stock looking trunk.

One important thing to consider, not necessarily for you OP but for anyone thinking about the vincebar install, it's very difficult at least where I live to find a trustworthy shop that's actually willing to do the work. I had to reach out to a few local race shops and race teams to even hear me out on an install for the vincebar. All the "go-to" shops in my area are lazy and will only recommend and carry out an underside reinforcement only (i.e. just the underside plates and that's all.)

[sina]

Since Google is leaving me empty handed: where is the Vincebar actually available/for sale?

[LeeForst]

+1 for vincebar here as well. The CMP kit is great too. Between the two I just preferred retaining a stock looking trunk.

One important thing to consider, not necessarily for you OP but for anyone thinking about the vincebar install, it's very difficult at least where I live to find a trustworthy shop that's actually willing to do the work. I had to reach out to a few local race shops and race teams to even hear me out on an install for the vincebar. All the "go-to" shops in my area are lazy and will only recommend and carry out an underside reinforcement only (i.e. just the underside plates and that's all.)

Yep --- agreed, same here with finding someone willing to do it. Wasn't cheap but these guys are the only place I'd take the car for something serious.

[timmo]

Since Google is leaving me empty handed: where is the Vincebar actually available/for sale?

Send him a PM on facebook, it seems like all his communication is through there. On the old M3F we'd usually PM, but I don't think he has an account here

[LeeForst]

Since Google is leaving me empty handed: where is the Vincebar actually available/for sale?

You can send him a message thru FB most likely. I can PM you his e-mail

[0-60motorsports]

Go with whichever ones seem better to you. They are all almost the same. Why not just get the vince plates since your leaning on getting the bar and front gussets. For subframe bushes go with cmp.


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[Slideways]

I'm trying understand how the Vince cup reinforcement top plates will be enough to stop the right front internal RACP mount from detaching from the two layers of the RACP. The right front mount seems to be the most common failure point. With the Vincebar, only the two rear mounts are tied together with the frame rails. I'm not sure how strong that sloping section of the top RACP is to distribute the load from the right front subframe mount. The complete CMP topside reinforcement ties all four subframe mount points together from the top and also attaches all four points directly to the frame rails.

[2004LSB]

I'm trying understand how the Vince cup reinforcement top plates will be enough to stop the right front internal RACP mount from detaching from the two layers of the RACP. The right front mount seems to be the most common failure point. With the Vincebar, only the two rear mounts are tied together with the frame rails. I'm not sure how strong that sloping section of the top RACP is to distribute the load from the right front subframe mount. The complete CMP topside reinforcement ties all four subframe mount points together from the top and also attaches all four points directly to the frame rails.

Back on the old M3forum, Vince explained in great detail the dynamic forces acting upon the RACP when the vehicle is being driven. In short, what happens is the front mounts experience a "compressive" force, while the back ones experience a "pulling" force. The rear subframe pushes up into the RACP on the front passenger side mount the most, while it pulls off of the RACP the most on the rear driver's side. So in essence, the cylindrical gusset cups in the front should do their job by providing greater vertical strength and dispersing it through a wider surface area. The back bar ties the rear mounts directly to the frame rails - - so in theory the system reinforces the mounting points enough so that it prevents the rear subframe from ripping off the RACP. It will still flex when driven hard, but reduced greatly and should in theory prevent complete failure.

[2004LSB]

Here's a customer video from Vince's facebook page:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm6s...mjpeBW3nqKFn24

at around 1:30, you can see the floor moving quite a bit before the reinforcements. at around 3:30, this is the movement of the floor after his kit is installed.

[Slideways]

Here's a customer video from Vince's facebook page:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm6s...mjpeBW3nqKFn24

at around 1:30, you can see the floor moving quite a bit before the reinforcements. at around 3:30, this is the movement of the floor after his kit is installed.

It looks like it does the job in that video. The Driftworks V10 build has had a bar across the two rear mounts but nothing on the front for a few years, and the top of the front right mount broke off as if it were being pulled down (3:30):

I guess upwards compression forces could cause that if the RACP layer which supports the top of the front right mount is weak enough to bend upward, then have the mount detach like that.