What NON-coilover suspension do you prefer

[FBloggs]

The B12 is a kit with B6s shocks and the Eibach Pro Sport kit so no. It isn't a coilover kit. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your question but I can't imagine any interchangability possible.

I don't know why anyone thinks shocks will raise the car. They control movement, not push the car up. You what controls ride height? Springs do it. This is a stupid rumor from people who don't understand basic undercar theory. You don't put ride height adjusters on shocks, you put then on the springs, always. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

I have used Bilstein monotubes for years.
Bilstein B8 with stock springs raises the car on both the E30 M3 and the E36 M3. These dampers are designed for shorter sport springs.

I use Bilstein B6 on an E46 M3. The B6 is not a shortened sport damper. It was designed to work on cars that spend more of their usage hauling more weight.
I bought Eibach Pro kit springs because the B6/OEM springs raised the car, and because the B6/OEM combo has poor chassis control when pushed.
I have pix of the E46 with Sachs/OEM, B6/OEM, and B12(B6/Eibach pro kit.)
Much larger wheel arch to top of tire gap on the B6/OEM Combo.
.edit for some figures.
Comparing the corner heights between the B6/OEM vs the B12:
LF...22mm drop.
RF...22 mm drop.
LR...15 mm drop.
RR...23 mm drop.
ymmv...this is for my car..

[Arith2]

I have used Bilstein monotubes for years.
Bilstein B8 with stock springs raises the car on both the E30 M3 and the E36 M3. These dampers are designed for shorter sport springs.

I use Bilstein B6 on an E46 M3. The B6 is not a shortened sport damper. It was designed to work on cars that spend more of their usage hauling more weight.
I bought Eibach Pro kit springs because the B6/OEM springs raised the car, and because the B6/OEM combo has poor chassis control when pushed.
I have pix of the E46 with Sachs/OEM, B6/OEM, and B12(B6/Eibach pro kit.)
Much larger wheel arch to top of tire gap on the B6/OEM Combo.
.edit for some figures.
Comparing the corner heights between the B6/OEM vs the B12:
LF...22mm drop.
RF...22 mm drop.
LR...15 mm drop.
RR...23 mm drop.
ymmv...this is for my car..

Look on page 4 at my post. I explain why it raises them after I did some research. I didn't even bother taking a baseline on my car because the ride height was already too low and out of specs for the stock suspension. It was drooping pretty bad and it took all night for the front shocks to push themselves half was up.

I was able to get stock suspension out without messing with any ball joints. I just compressed the spring, undid the top nut, removed the bumpstop, and compressed the shock. My mounting plate bearings were grinding when I spun them. I should've taken a picture for those who are doing this soon and have never done it before.

[Icecream]

It’s the same car.

Are you being deliberately obtuse lol?

[R60BBA]

Are you being deliberately obtuse lol?

No you are.

I have already told you that B6 raises ride height due to gas pressure (which is common knowledge) and you have replied with an essay of absurd nonsense.

Your arrogance is blinding you.

Good day sir.

[FBloggs]

How much of an improvement is there with running Bilstein B6 dampers with stock springs versus the OEM dampers (Sachs I assume?)?

It depends on what you mean by improvement, and your individual preference for ride and handling.
I tried the B6/OEM spring combo. It had a nice ride on smooth and roads with smallish bumps and dips.
I thought it was awful on roads with larger dips and bumps that worked the damper harder.
Driving at 7/10ths plus, the chassis control was abysmal... car placement was wobbly and imprecise.
But there's a poster in this thread who seems to be happy with the B6/OEM.
The static ride height of the car is raised with big tire/fender gaps.
If I was forced to choose between the B6/OEM and the Sachs/OEM, i'd choose the latter. The static height would look better at the very least.
As. Bilstein user for many years, I am nonplussed by the inconsistent behavior of the B6 for this chassis.

I would like to try the 10 way adjustable B6 that is available in Europe for the E46 nonM .
the top of the strut shafts need to be turned down in diameter to fit the deeper E46 M3 strut mounts.

[01SG]

I posted about running the B6/OEM setup and find your analysis a little odd. You're saying that lowering springs, with basically the same exact spring rate as stock, transformed the handling of the car that much? It is trash with B6/OEM, but great with the B12 kit? I find that hard to believe. That said, I've only experimented with lowering springs on my e36 m3, where I found the slightly better body control on perfectly smooth roads to be put off by the jarring ride and lack of control over rough roads.

I make no claim to being the next Fangio, and I have yet to have this set up on the track where I could actually testify to its capability closer to the limit, however I find the car extremely predictable and easy to drive on the street. I think it's safe to say the Bilstein is at least superior to the Sachs, regardless of spring choice.

There may be room for debate there, but where I refuse to acknowledge any concession is in ride quality. I have a e36 with brand new Sachs/OEM and the e46 with brand new Bilstein/OEM. Ride is comparable, both are compliant, comfortable, and firm. Compared to my old e36 with the Koni/Eibach kit, the ride is night and day. I have yet to bottom out the B6s, whereas I'd be crawling sideways over every bump with the lowered car. I'm sure it would be a problem with aftermarket springs, but at stock height the B6 has not presented me with any travel complaints. I doubt any car with off the shelf lowering springs would ride better, regardless of strut choice or road conditions. I should acknowledge that I have 255/40/17's though, with which the taller side wall makes for a more comfy ride.

As for wheel gap, there is some. I know a lot of people are anal about that, but I don't care. If you look at press pictures from when the car was new there was significant wheel gap, I'd say mine looks similar, maybe a bit more. I can get some pictures up if anyone's interested.

[Arith2]

Too much wheel gap if you ask me. That's a solid foot and a half.

[Advorsor]

There's only two non stock spring options that don't ruin the car:
1) Eibach
2) Dinan

And two viable shocks:
Koni Yellow (optional: TCK top adjustable rear koni yellow)
Bilstein

The Bilsteins have bump travel issues, but are a little bit better of a shock.

Personally, I'd go with Bilsteins with stock springs or Konis with one of the two above springs.Even with the stock springs, I'd trim the bump stops on the Bilsteins a bit.

... on the M3 wagon I'm running Dinan springs with Konis (TCK top adjustable rear Konis).



The B12 Bilsteins are the standard bilstein-- in no way specific to the Eibach spring.



All 2004 and later cars had the same suspension, ZCP or not. That suspension is higher and softer than the 01-03.5 cars.



Once you're spending that kind of money... there's better options than KWs... unless your sole goal is max drop without civility compromise.

Can you elaborate on the “ruin” the car comment? Are you implying something about H&Rs?

Thanks.

[Obioban]

Can you elaborate on the “ruin” the car comment? Are you implying something about H&Rs?

Thanks.

H&R’s spring setup is one of the worst sold for the car. Junk.

[90mtx]

So...is a Ground Control coilover kit with B6s a "better" product than a B12 kit? Better from a bounce management standpoint because of the ability to get specific spring rates and lengths?

Thanks
Jonathan

[Obioban]

So...is a Ground Control coilover kit with B6s a "better" product than a B12 kit? Better from a bounce management standpoint because of the ability to get specific spring rates and lengths?

Thanks
Jonathan

Ground controls are Koni based. But, yes, they're better than the B12s.

[r4dr]

He might be talking about the GC sleeve kit to convert stock-style struts to height-adjustable.

[Tbonem3]

So...is a Ground Control coilover kit with B6s a "better" product than a B12 kit? Better from a bounce management standpoint because of the ability to get specific spring rates and lengths?

Thanks
Jonathan

What's better? If you want height adjustability (which most do), then the GC kit is "better," but requires camber plates to lower correctly (extra $). If you want stiffer rates, then the GC kit is better as, like you say, you can choose rates. However, since the billys aren't rebound adjustable, you can only increase rates so much before the dampers can't keep up.

I feel like my 325lb/550lb eibachs on GC B6s is the stiffest you'd want to go. It's bouncier than it should be, esp on the freeway. Feels great over all, and much more responsive up front than the B12 kit which has rates of 155lb/375-750lb (stock is 143lb/345-685lb).

I'll take maxed out, slightly underdampened billys over perfectly adjusted yellow konis any day.

Camber plates needed for the GC kit, not just to get -2 degrees or more, but to get "free" lowering of 5/8-7/8" (TMS/Vorshlag/GC are the ones I know reduce stack height, but probably all plates do).

[90mtx]

Yes I was talking about the GC Sleeves for the B6s compared to the B12 kit. Suspension is very subjective and dependent on the desired use, and there are more than a few schools of thought on what is best. I like the GC adjusters as it is somewhat of a know commodity for me (I ran it on a street Miata for years, with Konis) I don't want much drop, not only for the negative effects on the suspension geometry, but it's easier to lift up with a jack! And I think I might get them Fat Cat optimized down the road, so I lean toward the Bilsteins. Or at least have the option. The B12 kit is a cheaper that the B6 and GC sleeves, (and cheaper than the H&R Coilovers, but those have poorly designed rear adjusters/perch and poor spring rates) Options.. Thanks for all the info!

Thanks
Jonathan

[Obioban]

What's better? If you want height adjustability (which most do), then the GC kit is "better," but requires camber plates to lower correctly (extra $). If you want stiffer rates, then the GC kit is better as, like you say, you can choose rates. However, since the billys aren't rebound adjustable, you can only increase rates so much before the dampers can't keep up.

I feel like my 325lb/550lb eibachs on GC B6s is the stiffest you'd want to go. It's bouncier than it should be, esp on the freeway. Feels great over all, and much more responsive up front than the B12 kit which has rates of 155lb/375-750lb (stock is 143lb/345-685lb).

I'll take maxed out, slightly underdampened billys over perfectly adjusted yellow konis any day.

Camber plates needed for the GC kit, not just to get -2 degrees or more, but to get "free" lowering of 5/8-7/8" (TMS/Vorshlag/GC are the ones I know reduce stack height, but probably all plates do).

IMO the B12 are objectively not very good in their stock form. They have little enough travel, without modification, that they're outside the range of taste/subjectivity, and actually just not that great.