PCS Tuning (Paul Claude) or HTE Performance (Hassan) for Karbonius CSL airbox tune?

[01M3Fan]

I just had Hassan tune my car yesterday - I have TMS box, Covid-19 MAP sensor, SS headers. I've only driven the car 8 or 10 miles, but huge difference from before. Very smooth and really pulls hard up top. Starts very smoothly. Looking forward to getting more miles on it and letting the Beisan seals break in on the Vanos and the adaptations to mature.

[duracellttu]

What exactly did he says he didn't like about Paul tune?

Biggest things he said was that the tune had knock sensitivity reduced by 40% and that it might make power but it would kill the motor. Also mentioned that the hesitation at lower RPMs was due to forcing minimum timing up by a delta of over 20 degrees.

I didnt get any more details. Also don’t know enough about tuning to understand if the values he stated are truly that dangerous, but it didn’t sound good from how he described it.

[repoman89]

Biggest things he said was that the tune had knock sensitivity reduced by 40% and that it might make power but it would kill the motor. Also mentioned that the hesitation at lower RPMs was due to forcing minimum timing up by a delta of over 20 degrees.

I didnt get any more details. Also don’t know enough about tuning to understand if the values he stated are truly that dangerous, but it didn’t sound good from how he described it.

Weird. I have inspected my PCS tune (particularly knock sensitivity and minimum timing) against the stock CSL tune and found it to be much closer than that. You can look at the maps yourself in TunerPro, PCS doesn't lock his like Evolve or Epic. For me knock was reduced by a maximum of 10% in certain RPM bands and timing was certainly not forced to a 20 degree delta. Been a few years since I looked but I too was concerned about safety so made sure for myself. Paul runs his car extensively on the Nurburgring and I haven't heard of any failures. Many high RPM hours on mine and it also doesn't even have the typical CSL "takeoff from idle" hesitation / surging that everyone complains about.

edit: will check again later and give some exact numbers vs stock CSL

[ZiMMie]

Biggest things he said was that the tune had knock sensitivity reduced by 40% and that it might make power but it would kill the motor. Also mentioned that the hesitation at lower RPMs was due to forcing minimum timing up by a delta of over 20 degrees.

I didnt get any more details. Also don’t know enough about tuning to understand if the values he stated are truly that dangerous, but it didn’t sound good from how he described it.

lol this guy just wanted to sell you a tune.

not single shred of truth of what he told you.

There is a reason why all OG members make Paul tune their cars for them.

[duracellttu]

Weird. I have inspected my PCS tune (particularly knock sensitivity and minimum timing) against the stock CSL tune and found it to be much closer than that. You can look at the maps yourself in TunerPro, PCS doesn't lock his like Evolve or Epic. For me knock was reduced by a maximum of 10% in certain RPM bands and timing was certainly not forced to a 20 degree delta. Been a few years since I looked but I too was concerned about safety so made sure for myself. Paul runs his car extensively on the Nurburgring and I haven't heard of any failures. Many high RPM hours on mine and it also doesn't even have the typical CSL "takeoff from idle" hesitation / surging that everyone complains about.

edit: will check again later and give some exact numbers vs stock CSL

To be fair I had Evolve tune the car after I got headers (back in 2013), then PCS tuned after I did the CSL conversion and Schrick cams (2019). I would assume PCS reviewed all those parameters and would update them when we did my dyno day.

I’m trying to learn more about the layout of the tune binary file. Can you recommend any resources to learn about the offset memory locations for the different maps of interest? The stock CSL values would be really helpful. I think I still have the CSL binary to use as a reference.

You recommend TunerPro over WinOLS?

[duracellttu]

lol this guy just wanted to sell you a tune.

not single shred of truth of what he told you.

There is a reason why all OG members make Paul tune their cars for them.

I have no reason to believe he was lying. My tune was purchased during a M5 Facebook group buy. I sat on the credit for 3 years because of military life and COVID. I sent him my tune to review and modify after I had already purchased the service. He had no incentive to lie to me.

Let’s keep speculation out of the conversation. If I can get savvy enough to review the tune parameters I’ll report back with evidence. Tuning is getting beyond my realm of experience.

This is exactly why I said tuning is black magic lol

[repoman89]

To be fair I had Evolve tune the car after I got headers (back in 2013), then PCS tuned after I did the CSL conversion and Schrick cams (2019). I would assume PCS reviewed all those parameters and would update them when we did my dyno day.

I’m trying to learn more about the layout of the tune binary file. Can you recommend any resources to learn about the offset memory locations for the different maps of interest? The stock CSL values would be really helpful. I think I still have the CSL binary to use as a reference.

You recommend TunerPro over WinOLS?

I doubt PCS used the Evolve tune as a reference point at all -- can't even pull that tune from the car (they scramble something in the OBD2 comms code so you can't read it except with their tools into their proprietary format -- at least that's my assumption. My car came with an Evolve tune and I couldn't read it, just blew it away by flashing stock over it since I didn't like the throttle response at all as a new manual driver at the time). I'm certain Paul has his own base map collection based on common modification combinations.

Haven't used WinOLS but TunerPro is pretty easy for an amateur like myself to use to inspect and make basic modifications. Use the XDFs (map and memory offset definitions) in this Github repo: https://github.com/saildot4k/MSS54-XDFs

TunerPro uses those definitions to figure out how to display maps and parameters to the user. Load tune, load XDF, inspect. Use the MSS54 info thread here for reference as well for help figuring out what abbreviations and maps mean, much of it migrated over from the old forum.

[duracellttu]

I doubt PCS used the Evolve tune as a reference point at all -- can't even pull that tune from the car (they scramble something in the OBD2 comms code so you can't read it except with their tools into their proprietary format -- at least that's my assumption. My car came with an Evolve tune and I couldn't read it, just blew it away by flashing stock over it since I didn't like the throttle response at all as a new manual driver at the time). I'm certain Paul has his own base map collection based on common modification combinations.

Haven't used WinOLS but TunerPro is pretty easy for an amateur like myself to use to inspect and make basic modifications. Use the XDFs (map and memory offset definitions) in this Github repo: https://github.com/saildot4k/MSS54-XDFs

TunerPro uses those definitions to figure out how to display maps and parameters to the user. Load tune, load XDF, inspect. Use the MSS54 info thread here for reference as well for help figuring out what abbreviations and maps mean, much of it migrated over from the old forum.

Good point about the Evolve tune read outs. PCS could have very well have used his own or stock CSL tune as a baseline.

Thanks for the references. I’m going to looking into this.

[repoman89]

Good point about the Evolve tune read outs. PCS could have very well have used his own or stock CSL tune as a baseline.

Thanks for the references. I’m going to looking into this.

You're going to want to use the 0401 software version XDFs specifically, probably the "basic" version is good enough for knock detection and minimum timing params. Let us know what you find.

[EthanolTurbo]

lol this guy just wanted to sell you a tune.

not single shred of truth of what he told you.

There is a reason why all OG members make Paul tune their cars for them.

I don't think Matt was lying, he doesn't need to sell tunes. It's just odd that he would say that about a PCS tune.

[eacmen]

Good point about the Evolve tune read outs. PCS could have very well have used his own or stock CSL tune as a baseline.

Thanks for the references. I’m going to looking into this.

BDM can read any tune.

Not all evolve tunes are locked.

[duracellttu]

BDM can read any tune.

Not all evolve tunes are locked.

That was the case with my M5. The Evolve tune was not locked. I bought a license with MSS Flasher to use on both the e46 and e39, which worked great.

On a separate note, I was able to get ProTuner and the 0401 basic XDF file loaded up. What tables should I be comparing for knock sensitivity and minimum timing? I pulled up the “Knock Detection Knock Factor” (for each cylinder), “Misfire Knock Sensor Weight”, and “Ignition Minimum” tables. Are these the right tables to review and compare?

X axis looks like RPMs but what are the decimal values (0-1.0) with varying intervals/rows on the Y axis? Also, where can I look up the cell parameter values, ranges and units?

[Cubieman]

That was the case with my M5. The Evolve tune was not locked. I bought a license with MSS Flasher to use on both the e46 and e39, which worked great.

On a separate note, I was able to get ProTuner and the 0401 basic XDF file loaded up. What tables should I be comparing for knock sensitivity and minimum timing? I pulled up the “Knock Detection Knock Factor” (for each cylinder), “Misfire Knock Sensor Weight”, and “Ignition Minimum” tables. Are these the right tables to review and compare?

X axis looks like RPMs but what are the decimal values (0-1.0) with varying intervals/rows on the Y axis? Also, where can I look up the cell parameter values, ranges and units?

Where did you find the knock/ignition? I used the search function and could not find "Klopfen"(knock) nor "Zuendung" (ignition) using the search function nor browsing through the tables on my own.

I used the compare function (nice feature) to compare the CSL tune Kassel sent me vs. HTE dyno tune. Just screwing around and pulling up random tables I most definitely found some differences in places but could not find knock/ignition anywhere.

I am fairly certain I am using the correct XDF as I checked the vanos offsets and they are correct, I used the wrong XDF file on a bin once and the vanos offsets were some quite high numbers and obviously wrong.

I may be doing something wrong, how does one find the "version number" of CSL software?

Are either of the bin files available here 0401?

http://www.msstuning.com/mssflasher.html

[heinzboehmer]

Where did you find the knock/ignition? I used the search function and could not find "Klopfen"(knock) nor "Zuendung" (ignition) using the search function nor browsing through the tables on my own.

Use the basic xdf (not the one in the complete directory) from the github repo and search for "knock" (in english).

[Cubieman]

Use the basic xdf (not the one in the complete directory) from the github repo and search for "knock" (in english).

I'll give that a try tonight buy all the scales/tables etc. show in German.