PCS Tuning (Paul Claude) or HTE Performance (Hassan) for Karbonius CSL airbox tune?

[Grke46m3]

With tuning coming such a long way what’s everyone’s take on alpha N anymore? I know it was the only option at one point then the map setup came out but it’s not a true map setup. For a car that’s driven a few thousand miles a year on the street and how good alpha N has become is it worth going with a map setup anymore?


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[Obioban]

With tuning coming such a long way what’s everyone’s take on alpha N anymore? I know it was the only option at one point then the map setup came out but it’s not a true map setup. For a car that’s driven a few thousand miles a year on the street and how good alpha N has become is it worth going with a map setup anymore?


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IMO, there's no reason for anyone to use Alpha-N since MAP based became viable. Alpha N is only worse.

[thegenius46m]

IMO, there's no reason for anyone to use Alpha-N since MAP based became viable. Alpha N is only worse.

Yup. Alpha N is literal garbage and just an easy way to get the car running if you aren't looking to put in much effort but the car will not run very well. MAP is the only way to get stock like drivability.

[Tbonem3]

That's a bunch of bullshit Corey my car runs great.

CSL runs on Alpha N and so do plenty of race cars.

[Sprp85]

Interesting.

Isn't Hassan's (HTE) car running on Alpha N as well?

[0-60motorsports]

That's a bunch of bullshit Corey my car runs great.

CSL runs on Alpha N and so do plenty of race cars.

yeah it sure is, My car ran beautifully on Alpha-N. I only converted it full OE CSL with MAP because i have the OE CSL intake and wanted the flap to work etc....

[Bry5on]

That's a bunch of bullshit Corey my car runs great.

CSL runs on Alpha N and so do plenty of race cars.

The CSL actually does not run alpha-n as it uses the MAP sensor.

alpha-n can run well when tuned for a specific altitude. If you hit the mountains, or your environmental pressure is changing for whatever reason, you’ll want an additional sensor, be it a MAP or some sort of mass air meter. A race car running alpha-n should be tuned for the lowest altitude it’ll run at, otherwise it will run lean at specific tracks which is the danger zone.

I run a MAP sensor, with how easy it is to install, there’s really no good argument for not running one.

[Tbonem3]

The CSL actually does not run alpha-n as it uses the MAP sensor.

alpha-n can run well when tuned for a specific altitude. If you hit the mountains, or your environmental pressure is changing for whatever reason, you’ll want an additional sensor, be it a MAP or some sort of mass air meter. A race car running alpha-n should be tuned for the lowest altitude it’ll run at, otherwise it will run lean at specific tracks which is the danger zone.

I run a MAP sensor, with how easy it is to install, there’s really no good argument for not running one.

I like how you think you're telling me something.

Why don't you have a read:

https://www.m5board.com/threads/alph...lained.531905/

https://www.m5board.com/threads/what-is-an-alpha-n-tune.211189/

[Bry5on]

I like how you think you're telling me something.

Why don't you have a read:

https://www.m5board.com/threads/alph...lained.531905/

https://www.m5board.com/threads/what-is-an-alpha-n-tune.211189/

Correct me if I’m wrong but the pure definition of alpha-n does not have pressure correction. MAP gives you simple pressure correction. That’s all I intended to write, no need to be smug, assume good intent here.

edit: I read your link above and I believe it actually reinforces what I wrote. It also reminded me that alpha-n doesn’t do as well for throttle tip-in and tip-out, where tables aren’t always a representation of reality. And last it reminded me that the tables in our engine have terribly low fidelity

[discoelk]

The mss54 (hp and non-hp) both have MAP sensors for altitude compensation built into the ECU. Even if you run speed density mapping, a MAP sensor is still present for altitude compensation.

[repoman89]

The mss54 (hp and non-hp) both have MAP sensors for altitude compensation built into the ECU. Even if you run speed density mapping, a MAP sensor is still present for altitude compensation.

This .. iirc terra confirmed via disassembly that the CSL program only compensates a very small amount for the additional MAP sensor behind the throttle bodies, and same for the intake temp sensor.

That said, I run the sensor because it's easy to do these days. My car runs better than it did stock with none of the issues people usually complain about. No bouncing idle on takeoff / clutch out etc. Not sure how much of that to attribute to a skillful tune by PCS though.

[Bry5on]

That was the info I was missing! Cool, so either way the DME has all the variables it needs to calculate mass air flow.

I do remember participating (a very small amount) in the disassembly work about a decade ago, so this matches my understanding that the MAP sensor did have influence in the math. Thanks

[Obioban]

The MAP based engine management also uses the EGT for its calcs, unlike stock or alpha N.

measured data is only better than computed assumptions. If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t exist

[thegenius46m]

That's a bunch of bullshit Corey my car runs great.

CSL runs on Alpha N and so do plenty of race cars.

CSL runs on MAP actually. Racecars running on alpha N is worthless info because they are always at wot so they can technically run whatever and the car doesn't really care. These cars with the ITBS are VERY finicky when in vacuum and that's where you're going to have issues. Partial throttle specifically. Without a MAP or MAF sensor the car can't calculate atmospheric pressure changes to alter fueling, timing, etc. At sea level the effects arent as obvious, but go up in elevation a few thousand feet and those preset tables said tuner set as optimal for sea level are now worthless. If the MAP/MAF sensors were truly not needed, they wouldn't exist plain and simple. Alpha N solely exists as a half ass way to setup the car to get it to run "good enough" not optimal. It's for the guys that don't want to put in the effort or don't understand the wiring to implement one and its a quick and painless way for a tuner to send you a map to drive the car. It's far from ideal and was the quick and dirty way years ago before people understood enough about adding MAP functionality to a non-csl car and the tuners like Hassan actually figured out how to tune a CSL dme properly so the car wouldn't buck because that was so far out of wack that most tuners just gave up and made the car passable for the average guy with no standards.

Most people don't sit down and understand how this stuff works and assume that "hey if my car makes this much power it must be good right?" Nope. Drivability is key and a dynograph doesn't directly show that in laymans terms so no one talks about it.

[digger]

It seems to me the CSL uses Alpha-N with MAP compensation (it is not running MAP in the traditional speak as that would imply the MAP is the primary load sensor which doesn't seem to be the case)

if you cant run alpha-N without notable seat of the pants driveability / hesitation issues there is an actual issue with the ECU map or a mechanical/sensor issue. Alpha-N with MAP compensation is the better setup over Alpha-N with baro compensation