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Fun with a boroscope: installing structural foam in the rear subframe cavity

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    Fun with a boroscope: installing structural foam in the rear subframe cavity

    After installing an ESS VT2-525 supercharger I decide to reinforce my subframe mounts with BMW structural foam. These mounts sit inside cavities in the rear axle carrier panel (RACP).

    Prior to installing the supercharger, I removed the subframe for a bushing refresh and verified that there were no cracks in the RACP. I was mildly surprised given the 96k miles on the car - but I'll take it. The car is a 2003.

    I spent a lot of time reading the many (mostly high-quality) threads on the topic but they left me with a lot of confusion. The exact shape of the rear cavity to be filled was unclear to me. In particular, some reported that the left and right sides were asymmetrical and the BMW foam injection procedure for the left side (the only side actually specified as needed by BMW) would not work for the right side. The procedure for injecting foam only on the inner side of the mount seemed odd since it did not appear that it would allow the foam to completely surround the mount. This BMW procedure also specifies injecting gap filler in an area 135mm in front of the rear cavity in an area that looks to be completely unconnected.

    (The BMW foam injection procedure only specifies reinforcing the left rear mount, though it is common to do it on both rears; the front mounts can also be reinforced.)

    To clear up my confusion, I decided to buy a boroscope to determine the exact shape of the cavity to be filled with foam. I bought this model from Amazon, which cost about $60 shipped. It is a wireless model that connects to a mobile phone (iPhone or Android) to display and capture images or videos. Despite the relatively decent 5 megapixel resolution, the image quality is not all that great - but it worked fine for this low-demand task.

    For reference, here is a top view of the area above the rear mounts (facing towards the front of the car).



    A total of five holes can be seen. Four are existing factory holes (A, B, D, E) and are plugged from the factory. Hole C is user-drilled. A 1cm tall cavity extends the width of the trunk under the area from A to E. A taller cavity containing the mounts sits directly under this. The left rear mount sits in this lower cavity between holes A and B and the right rear mount sits between holes D and E. The five holes have matching holes in the roof of the lower cavity so there is direct access to it.

    I inserted the boroscope into the various holes and used it to examine the upper and lower cavities.

    Here is a view of the upper cavity with the boroscope inserted into hole B. Here the boroscope is facing towards the right of the car, with hole C dimly visible in the distance.



    This upper cavity does not have to be filled with foam according to the BMW procedure, though some have reported filling it in any case.

    Here are some views of the left rear mount in the lower cavity with the boroscope inserted into hole C.




    Hole B is clearly visible. Hole A is on the other side of the mount.

    As can be seen, the mount is spot welded to the top and bottom and the front and rear sides of the lower cavity.

    Here is a view of the right rear mount in the lower cavity with the boroscope inserted into hole C.



    Hole D is visible here. Hole E is on the other side of the mount.

    Here is a view from hole B towards the center of the lower cavity. A red Zip Tie I inserted into hole C is visible.



    The BMW procedure involves sealing off the left side of the lower cavity from the right by injecting the gap filler into hole C.

    Here is a view of this area with the gap filler immediately after injection.



    The filler effectively isolates both sides of the lower cavity.

    Here is the final cured gap filler.



    I also examined the extreme ends of the lower cavity through holes A and E and verified that the lower cavity terminates immediately after these holes.

    It thus seems clear that the lower cavity is symmetrical from side to side and is completely enclosed. (Though note that there are holes at the bottom of the cavity that must be plugged from underneath the car before injecting the foam.)

    As others have suggested before, it also seems that the BMW procedure that specifies injecting the foam only on the inner side of the mount (at hole B, with hole D being the equivalent on the right-hand side) might not be optimal.

    The foam is actually pretty viscous even when heated to the specified injection temperature so it does not self-level inside the cavity.

    Here is a picture of the foam injected into a box (I effed up my first injection attempt, which is why I ended up with $80 of goo in a box).



    Here is a picture of the cured foam 24 hours later.



    As can be seen, the foam does expand slightly when cured but is not self-leveling.

    Given this, I think it is pretty important to inject the foam on both sides of each mount since I don't think gravity will evenly distribute the foam. I suspect a lot of it could end up towards the center of the lower cavity if injected only in holes B and D.

    So, when injecting I used both holes. Unfortunately, it is not possible to directly see where the foam actually goes after installation but it is possible to indirectly infer based on the (surprisingly brisk) heat from the injected foam.

    After injecting on both sides of the left mount, the area between A and B was extremely hot. The heat extended all the way to the center hole at C, though it dissipated somewhat approaching C. I suspect the two 420ml foam containers specified by BMW do not fully fill the lower cavity, though the goal is to strengthen the area around the mounts so I don't think this is a problem.

    In any case, I hope the above was helpful. I plan to do an equivalent examination of the front mount cavities in the next few weeks.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by martin.oconnor; 01-11-2021, 02:49 PM.

    #2
    Very cool, thanks for posting. I'm planning on doing the foam in a few weeks. I should probably buy one of those cheap Android boroscope to have a quick look first.
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      #3
      Awesome, nice writeup on this procedure.
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        #4
        Great post. This really helps to reinforce the need to inject the foam at both outer holes in order to make certain it is evenly distributed.

        Where did you source the dispenser gun and mixing tubes? Any issues with the material starting to cure at the end of the mixing tube requiring a change mid-work?


        MJ

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by mjweimer View Post
          Where did you source the dispenser gun and mixing tubes?
          I bought the Cox M400XMR, which you can find for ~$115 at Grainger (https://www.grainger.com/product/COX...e-Manual-3EPT5) or Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/COX-M400XMR-A.../dp/B007IBI038).

          This is a really decent quality gun. Don't be tempted to get a cheaper gun from eBay. You can likely resell this gun for a small loss when you are finished using it.

          The tubes I bought from ECS.

          Originally posted by mjweimer View Post
          Any issues with the material starting to cure at the end of the mixing tube requiring a change mid-work?
          I left the tubes in a water bath for 30+ minutes at 65C/150F. I bought a 12"x16" roasting dish from Target (https://www.target.com/p/farberware-...k/-/A-15056994) to use as a water bath, and used the supplied grille to keep the tubes submerged while heating them (otherwise they float and will not heat evenly).

          It only takes about 2-3 minutes to get the foam into the cavity (though it is very viscous - hence my recommendation not to buy a cheap gun) so I did not have any issues with it curing while being applied.


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            #6
            Very Interesting...
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              #7
              Really interesting, the borescope photos are much higher quality than I imagined, do you have the name or link to the model you have?
              ​​​​

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by martin.oconnor View Post

                I bought the Cox M400XMR, which you can find for ~$115 at Grainger (https://www.grainger.com/product/COX...e-Manual-3EPT5) or Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/COX-M400XMR-A.../dp/B007IBI038).

                This is a really decent quality gun. Don't be tempted to get a cheaper gun from eBay. You can likely resell this gun for a small loss when you are finished using it.

                The tubes I bought from ECS.



                I left the tubes in a water bath for 30+ minutes at 65C/150F. I bought a 12"x16" roasting dish from Target (https://www.target.com/p/farberware-...k/-/A-15056994) to use as a water bath, and used the supplied grille to keep the tubes submerged while heating them (otherwise they float and will not heat evenly).

                It only takes about 2-3 minutes to get the foam into the cavity (though it is very viscous - hence my recommendation not to buy a cheap gun) so I did not have any issues with it curing while being applied.

                martin.oconner,

                Thanks for the additional information - this is exactly the detail I was hoping for - thanks again for sharing all of this with the group.

                The only downside I see with doing the foam is that it negates (or makes much more difficult) the option to weld any cracks in the future. That said, if applied properly on an undamaged chassis it should add strength to the entire area and prevent future issues...and there are many options for adding plates with structural adhesives should additional work be needed in the future.

                There was a good thread on the old forum where foam v. plates was discussed heavily. I tend to lean towards the foam solution for a street driven car without serious suspension/power modifications. Would be interested to hear what others think on the subject.


                MJ

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ianb View Post
                  Really interesting, the borescope photos are much higher quality than I imagined, do you have the name or link to the model you have?
                  ​​​​
                  I bought this model from Amazon:

                  https://www.amazon.com/Oiiwak-Inspec.../dp/B07MQCFQ92

                  There is a 20% off coupon at the moment so it can be bought for about $48.

                  It seems it has been superseded by this model:



                  It has an additional side camera. May be overkill for this task, but could be useful for others.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by mjweimer View Post
                    There was a good thread on the old forum where foam v. plates was discussed heavily. I tend to lean towards the foam solution for a street driven car without serious suspension/power modifications.
                    Yup - read all those old threads.

                    While I think plates are likely necessary for cars that have already developed cracks, I was not convinced of their utility for cars without such cracks.

                    The subframe mounts are attached to the rear axle carrier panel (RACP) via welds (some spot weld points are visible in the image of one of the rear mounts below), and stress from the mounts is transferred to the RACP through these weld points - which can cause cracking. What the foam does is enclose the mount so that the stress is effectively transferred to the RACP over a much larger area.

                    Am open to correction, but I have not seen a single report of cracks after foam installation.

                    Last edited by martin.oconnor; 04-20-2020, 05:26 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I need one of the diagrams from the old forum that showed how all the floor pieces sandwich together. Also anyone have the pdf of the BMW tsb?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by T.J. View Post
                        I need one of the diagrams from the old forum that showed how all the floor pieces sandwich together. Also anyone have the pdf of the BMW tsb?

                        The TSB is attached.

                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The foam in the box - looks like it expanded quite a bit. I wonder what long term effect is if now due to expansion and curing it is actually pressing out on the racp panels.

                          If interested, a lot of good reading material here (not foam related, but general subframe): https://cmpautoengineering.com/pages/technical
                          Youtube DIYs and more

                          All jobs done as diy - clutch, rod bearings, rear subframe rebush, vanos, headers, cooling, suspension, etc.

                          PM for help in NorCal. Have a lot of specialty tools - vanos, pilot bearing puller, bushing press kit, valve adjustment, fcab, wheel bearing, engine support bar, etc.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by martin.oconnor View Post

                            Am open to correction, but I have not seen a single report of cracks after foam installation.
                            This thread and comment have gotten me interested in this solution again -- god it looks easy to do. I have a 70k mile vert, half those miles are mine, and I don't drive it hard. I know that verts will crack as well, but from what I understand it takes longer? So with that in mind, I'd be shocked if my RACP had any cracks at this stage, making it a prime candidate for foam treatment.

                            I know that there's absolutely no guarantee that foam would be sufficient in my case, and after long enough, cracks would probably always eventually develop (it even happens with plates), but maybe in my case (lower mileage vert, not driven hard) foam would significantly lengthen the failure timescale such that it would be worth it to foam now and save other reinforcements for years down the road if I still have the car?

                            One thing I've heard (I hope I'm remembering incorrectly): doing foam first somehow makes it harder to weld in plates and/or do a topside reinforcement later.. is this true? It's not clear to me why it would be.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Excellent DIY and information. Thanks for posting this.

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