What oil?

[Norocehcap]

Ugh, every time you link this I buy a case because it's a good deal.

Nice score! I think Amazon does this same sale every few months, I paid $103 in November when someone linked it last time for black friday.

[Tbonem3]

I've never seen it this low. it's usually like $12x iirc. Too bad the per liter price is still $13.50 (still cheaper than other venders who have it at $14, however).

[r4dr]

Just bought 12 liters of TWS for $110! $9.20 per!

https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-SUPER...5317995&sr=8-4

Ugh, every time you link this I buy a case because it's a good deal.

[Tbonem3]

Just bought 12 liters of TWS for $110! $9.20 per!

https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-SUPERCAR-10W-60-Advanced-Synthetic/dp/B0161A4CIS/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=10w60&qid=1615317995&sr=8-4

[IamFODI]

I did follow your link but the first one was dead, and I didn't see anything else that lead to engine testing?

Thanks. Fixed it.

The point is what I said here:

...the people who do this stuff for a living don't like to choose engine oils based on an incomplete list of ingredients and/or a very small number of un-validated tests on homemade rigs. They want to look at a lot of different aspects of performance, using extensively validated methods and actual engines.

And here:

The [test rig in this video is basically a version of] the "one-arm bandit," a machine that sorta-kinda-mimics the Timken OK Load test. The real Timken OK Load test is well defined and accepted for extreme pressure (EP) performance, which is very important for greases and gearbox lubes. But there's almost nothing in an engine that sees similar kinds of loads, and formulating a lubricant for very high levels of EP performance involves compromises that are not acceptable for an engine oil (which is a major reason why engine and gearbox lubes are different). So, even if this method had been validated (which it hasn't) and were performed in a rigorous way according to accepted standards (which it isn't), it would only tell us one aspect of an oil's performance, and that one aspect would be largely irrelevant to engines.

[The] evaporation loss test is okay for what it is, and the thought of testing aged oil is great. But at no point in an engine does the oil sit at that temp under atmospheric pressure for... hours, and real oil aging methods involve more than just high temps (e.g. bubbling NOx compounds through the oil and then loading it with soot). All he does to justify this method is name-drop the Noack volatility test, which is interesting but very narrow in its utility and works differently from how he did it [not just with greater precision as he says].

[The] cold flow test also is not meaningful because cold oil doesn't just passively flow through an engine. It gets pumped, and pumping generates shear forces which change the apparent viscosity of the oil. That's why real cold viscosity tests, like the MRV and CCS testing that defines an engine oil's W rating (e.g. the 10W in 10W-60), involve shear forces.

And:

What limited data is worth basing a decision on? Well, for one thing... the people who developed the engine literally told us what oil they think we should use.

Beyond that, we're unfortunately in a crappy situation because BMW never published an actual lubricant spec for these engines. They and their lubrication partners (Castrol, then Shell) are the only ones who really know the details of what the engine needs, and they're never going to tell. Everyone else is just guessing.

Barring an OEM recommendation, and in the absence of an actual spec, the (distantly) next best thing is a track record of apparent success in real performance engines, ideally including yours. Liqui Moly is the obvious go-to here. If you like big additive PPM numbers on oil analysis, Motul 300V and Red Line's non-OE-approved lineup are no-brainers; Red Line might have more of a rep in S54s per se, while 300V has way more of a track record in high-end racing, for what that's worth. If impressive specs and credible promises of cutting-edge tech are more your thing, Ravenol seems like a good call.

The Castrol TWS is just repackaged whatever, and not the original TWS right?

TWS's history apparently goes back to the '70s. It was a very successful lubricant in racing that ended up going through many revisions and re-brandings over the decades (of which TWS was just one brand). It's still a highly successful lubricant family and is still in use in some applications, like the Audi R8 GT.

do we trust them to actually make it better for our application, or just improve product margins?

Impossible to know whether it's as good for the S54 as it was in 2001, but it's still just as important and successful as it always has been, so it's highly unlikely that they've ruined it through cost-cutting.

[r4dr]

I just put whatever 10W-60 strikes my fancy into my M3 and drive it ~2,000 miles a year in warm months. Life is too short lol.

[tnord]

Please don’t clean it off without removing the whole head and putting it in a dunk tank.

All that dirt and varnish will just end up back in the oil pan and may end up causing more problems.

Just use shorter oil change interval and it may eventually wash away.

I'm not. I did it on the VANOS because it was off the car and everything was accessible. I'm hoping that my annual 1500-3k mile OCIs with non-castrol may help over time.

"Original" TWS was formulated in what, the 90s? We've come a long way in petroleum technologies in the past 20+ years, not sure I'd want to run original TWS if there are more modern alternatives out there.

fair point. do we trust them to actually make it better for our application, or just improve product margins?

[r4dr]

"Original" TWS was formulated in what, the 90s? We've come a long way in petroleum technologies in the past 20+ years, not sure I'd want to run original TWS if there are more modern alternatives out there.

[eacmen]

Well, I could clean it off with brake cleaner. I could also scrape it off in places with a pick. I may have some old photos somewhere, I'll see if I can find them.

I did follow your link but the first one was dead, and I didn't see anything else that lead to engine testing? Agree, differences between quality oils will be minor. The Castrol TWS is just repackaged whatever, and not the original TWS right?

Please don’t clean it off without removing the whole head and putting it in a dunk tank.

All that dirt and varnish will just end up back in the oil pan and may end up causing more problems.

Just use shorter oil change interval and it may eventually wash away.

[tnord]

Are you sure it's varnish, i.e. a laquer-like layer baked onto the metal surface? If it's just discoloration on the metal surface, it's probably just staining. Much less bad than varnish.



There might be. But if there is...

1. We'd never know (see the post I linked), and
2. Any differences that exist are going to be extremely minor.

That's why people are saying just pick your fave. Might as well.

If it were my engine, I'd go with BMW 10W-60 from FCP Euro, because... FCP Euro. Second choice would be Castrol TWS.

Well, I could clean it off with brake cleaner. I could also scrape it off in places with a pick. I may have some old photos somewhere, I'll see if I can find them.

I did follow your link but the first one was dead, and I didn't see anything else that lead to engine testing? Agree, differences between quality oils will be minor. The Castrol TWS is just repackaged whatever, and not the original TWS right?

[IamFODI]

From what I remember, it's something that's unique to the Castrol in that it turns the head the brownish color you mention. And yes, I believe it's basically varnish. I cleaned it all off of the vanos when I rebuilt that unit, but it's impossible to do anything with the head unless you take it off and hot tank it. If I remember right, we basically concluded back in the day that the longer the OCI, the darker the varnish would be. Since the timing of this car correlated with the change to 15k rec'd intervals there's often some pretty dark, thick varnish inside the head.

Are you sure it's varnish, i.e. a laquer-like layer baked onto the metal surface? If it's just discoloration on the metal surface, it's probably just staining. Much less bad than varnish.

Don't care about cost savings. Just looking to lengthen the amount of time before I'll need to yank the motor for a full rebuild. I agree I don't think a change to any quality product will yield significant benefits, but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there. Especially with the constant changes in Castrol.

There might be. But if there is...

1. We'd never know (see the post I linked), and
2. Any differences that exist are going to be extremely minor.

That's why people are saying just pick your fave. Might as well.

If it were my engine, I'd go with BMW 10W-60 from FCP Euro, because... FCP Euro. Second choice would be Castrol TWS.

[eacmen]

Use whatever oil meets the spec and priced so that your budget allows for short oil change interval.

[tnord]

What do you mean by darker color? I recently did some work and saw that the underside of my valve cover and the top of head in general had a brown look to it (varnished oil?).

From what I remember, it's something that's unique to the Castrol in that it turns the head the brownish color you mention. And yes, I believe it's basically varnish. I cleaned it all off of the vanos when I rebuilt that unit, but it's impossible to do anything with the head unless you take it off and hot tank it. If I remember right, we basically concluded back in the day that the longer the OCI, the darker the varnish would be. Since the timing of this car correlated with the change to 15k rec'd intervals there's often some pretty dark, thick varnish inside the head.

I don't really think it will, but I was kinda hoping that my short cycle OCIs and use of a different oil might start to clean that out.

Same as for DropTopKingM3. Whatever you like, as long as it meets spec and/or has a decent rep in these cars. You don't drive enough to see significant performance benefits or cost savings no matter what you do.

Don't care about cost savings. Just looking to lengthen the amount of time before I'll need to yank the motor for a full rebuild. I agree I don't think a change to any quality product will yield significant benefits, but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there. Especially with the constant changes in Castrol.

[IamFODI]

not to stir this up again, but I'm getting rod bearings done before long and was looking around for what to put in. I've been on castrol TWS/Edge/Whatever since I got the car in 2010, using 7500 intervals when I was DD'ing it for a 3 years. Now I'm on annual OCI probably around 1500miles.

Same as for DropTopKingM3. Whatever you like, as long as it meets spec and/or has a decent rep in these cars. You don't drive enough to see significant performance benefits or cost savings no matter what you do.

found this interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvYW5DWJBWE

Neat looking, but not meaningful for engine oil. See this (talking about a different person doing the same kind of test) if you're interested why.

[Cubieman]

not to stir this up again, but I'm getting rod bearings done before long and was looking around for what to put in. I've been on castrol TWS/Edge/Whatever since I got the car in 2010, using 7500 intervals when I was DD'ing it for a 3 years. Now I'm on annual OCI probably around 1500miles.

found this interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvYW5DWJBWE

sidebar; when I did my valve adjustment the head had the darker color to it I'm guessing from the OP 15k OCI. If I keep changing it on this short interval, will the detergents eventually clean it up?

What do you mean by darker color? I recently did some work and saw that the underside of my valve cover and the top of head in general had a brown look to it (varnished oil?). I am the 4th owner and while the vehicle overall seems well kept I don't know how often/what oil was used previous to me buying the car in June of 2018.
I have seen photos of others with the valve cover removed and the metal components looked much more silver or metallic colored rather than brown like mine. Maybe they just had theirs cleaned up, who knows.

You can see the valve cover had varnished oil all over it, in the photo I wiped I down a bit, but none the less it shows the dark "burnt on" oil.