S54 Stroker build

[M/Anthony]

0.5mm is not worth a huge amount in itself from the size as it is a small percentage point change in engine size. new pistons gain from what you have comes from it being a fresh bore and torque plate honing, different CR, deeper valve reliefs better rings etc etc.

i have no idea on the quality and don't know the manufacturer, cant see any inherent issues though. You wouldnt know until the engine builder mic's it and checks it out

Relabilty in terms of engine performance and engine life not the crank itself, because increasing the crank would effectively increase the displacement?

[digger]

Relabilty in terms of engine performance and engine life not the crank itself, because increasing the crank would effectively increase the displacement?

not sure what reliability of performance means, the engine will wear out a bit quicker like for like. It is subject to how hard its used, bear in mind you wont need to rev it as hard as the power peak will occur at a lower rpm by 3-400rpm.

[ethan]

For a build like this, you really need to talk to race teams and engine builders who've put things like this together. Increasing stroke on what amounts to a factory-stroked engine is aggressive, but people like Lang have spent a lot of time making it work with billet cranks with widened journals/bearings. Shoot him an email with your reliability and horsepower requirements and see what he comes up with. He's extremely knowledgeable.

[M/Anthony]

Update: I've gotten in contact with Lang Racing Development today, awaiting a response along with Patree racing

and to digger: since increasing the displacement ruins the reliability of this engine, my fear is with 13:1 Compression and a 9k redline along with E85, and an increase in displacement will only lead to disaster. I would like to get as close as I can to 300wtq.

[ethan]

Update: I've gotten in contact with Lang Racing Development today, awaiting a response along with Patree racing

and to digger: since increasing the displacement ruins the reliability of this engine, my fear is with 13:1 Compression and a 9k redline along with E85, and an increase in displacement will only lead to disaster. I would like to get as close as I can to 300wtq.

Revs kill rod bearings. Long stroke kills rod bearings. You're going to be pushing the limits of reliability with this build no matter what. Hopefully the pros will have some good advice for you 👍.

[digger]

Update: I've gotten in contact with Lang Racing Development today, awaiting a response along with Patree racing

and to digger: since increasing the displacement ruins the reliability of this engine, my fear is with 13:1 Compression and a 9k redline along with E85, and an increase in displacement will only lead to disaster. I would like to get as close as I can to 300wtq.

it doesnt ruin the reliability, as there simply wont be a need to turn anywhere near 9k as the peak power will be around 8k maybe a tad below it due to the larger displacment depending on stroke. the engine should make 300wtq with 13:1 compression and E85

[Anri]

Redline to 9k.Anthony

Hi Anthony,

You have very hi goals and expectations from 3.2XX displacement out of only 6 holes...

I assume you are in a place of were emissions are exempt ?

9000rpm ? Is this a race engine with few hours and then torn down to inspect parts ?

500 crank hp as requested and perhaps put on 91 pump gas ? oh boy you are asking the
absolute not possible.

You have to be more Constructive in therms of physics and then you will quickly get an
idea that what you ask for is impossible.

First things first !!! the type of fuel are you going to be driving your custom build S54 ?
it looks to me that you will be driving on pump gas 91-93 octane. No cheating fuel here, right ?

Tabel of content.

-HP per liter should be your goal #1. What you are asking is 156hp-per 1k cc of displacement
that is absolute impossible to achieve with pump gas. Unless the Owner of the gas station puts
inside in his tanks M5+Nytro fuel.
-9000rpm is great but reliability goals ? To hold the valve train intact you need very stiff springs
which do load the the valve train parts and apply a lot of stress which leads to shorter life span.
-Power curve target ?
-Internal vibration out of inline-6 and parasitic loses in which will destroy your Harmonic balancer
and possibly/likely the crankshaft. Stroker engines do not like to rev hi and you ask the opposite.
-Lash caps is a common upgrade when you pushing hi revs. But never forget there is no
Free Lunch !!! Stiff springs and seat pressure do ware out the parts such as valves to the seat
camshaft ware out, rocker arms DLC is a must to increase reliability. Revving to 9000rpm you
will need to adjust your valves frequently because its the nature of all Race Engines with solid
valve train design.
-Heat management generated via 9000rpm.

Look at things as complete Package not individual and virtual "I want"

Hope this will help a bit.

Regards,
Anri

[stash1]

Hi Anthony,

You have very hi goals and expectations from 3.2XX displacement out of only 6 holes...

I assume you are in a place of were emissions are exempt ?

9000rpm ? Is this a race engine with few hours and then torn down to inspect parts ?

500 crank hp as requested and perhaps put on 91 pump gas ? oh boy you are asking the
absolute not possible.

You have to be more Constructive in therms of physics and then you will quickly get an
idea that what you ask for is impossible.

First things first !!! the type of fuel are you going to be driving your custom build S54 ?
it looks to me that you will be driving on pump gas 91-93 octane. No cheating fuel here, right ?

Tabel of content.

-HP per liter should be your goal #1. What you are asking is 156hp-per 1k cc of displacement
that is absolute impossible to achieve with pump gas. Unless the Owner of the gas station puts
inside in his tanks M5+Nytro fuel.
-9000rpm is great but reliability goals ? To hold the valve train intact you need very stiff springs
which do load the the valve train parts and apply a lot of stress which leads to shorter life span.
-Power curve target ?
-Internal vibration out of inline-6 and parasitic loses in which will destroy your Harmonic balancer
and possibly/likely the crankshaft. Stroker engines do not like to rev hi and you ask the opposite.
-Shim under is a common upgrade when you pushing hi revs. But never forget there is no
Free Lunch !!! Stiff springs and seat pressure do ware out the parts such as valves to the seat
camshaft ware out, rocker arms DLC is a must to increase reliability. Revving to 9000rpm you
will need to adjust your valves frequently because its the nature of all Race Engines.
-Heat management generated via 9000rpm.

Look at things as complete Package not individual and virtual "I want"

Hope this will help a bit.

Regards,
Anri

-The DOHC S54 valvetrain is different than traditional/conventional V6/V8 engines, and is more like a motorcycle engine. The S54 doesn't require crazy spring pressures to control the valves...even for larger more aggressive cams. True, increased rpm's can shorten valve spring life, but rod bearings are probably a bigger concern than the springs.

-True that modifying an engine's rotating assembly w/aftermarket parts will change the harmonics of an engine, and usually, at the worst rpm's. The stock balancer is generally tuned to a very narrow frequency range, and will become slightly 'out of tune' when the rotating assembly is modified and/or when HP is increased dramatically...but I don't think that I've seen hardly any engine failures that can be traced directly to using a 'good' stock balancer. However, OP still may want to consider an aftermarket balancer, if he does build this all-out motor?

[Obioban]

Hi Anthony,

You have very hi goals and expectations from 3.2XX displacement out of only 6 holes...

I assume you are in a place of were emissions are exempt ?

9000rpm ? Is this a race engine with few hours and then torn down to inspect parts ?

500 crank hp as requested and perhaps put on 91 pump gas ? oh boy you are asking the
absolute not possible.

You have to be more Constructive in therms of physics and then you will quickly get an
idea that what you ask for is impossible.

First things first !!! the type of fuel are you going to be driving your custom build S54 ?
it looks to me that you will be driving on pump gas 91-93 octane. No cheating fuel here, right ?

Tabel of content.

-HP per liter should be your goal #1. What you are asking is 156hp-per 1k cc of displacement
that is absolute impossible to achieve with pump gas. Unless the Owner of the gas station puts
inside in his tanks M5+Nytro fuel.
-9000rpm is great but reliability goals ? To hold the valve train intact you need very stiff springs
which do load the the valve train parts and apply a lot of stress which leads to shorter life span.
-Power curve target ?
-Internal vibration out of inline-6 and parasitic loses in which will destroy your Harmonic balancer
and possibly/likely the crankshaft. Stroker engines do not like to rev hi and you ask the opposite.
-Shim under is a common upgrade when you pushing hi revs. But never forget there is no
Free Lunch !!! Stiff springs and seat pressure do ware out the parts such as valves to the seat
camshaft ware out, rocker arms DLC is a must to increase reliability. Revving to 9000rpm you
will need to adjust your valves frequently because its the nature of all Race Engines with solid
valve train design.
-Heat management generated via 9000rpm.

Look at things as complete Package not individual and virtual "I want"

Hope this will help a bit.

Regards,
Anri

There's a lot of truth here. Stroking makes revving high harder on the engine. Stroking is harder on the engine. Revving high means more wear and more heat. Higher compression needs different fuel. Engines that work well at nearly 9000 rpm are going to have worse bottom end than stock, which seems to be one of your primary goals.

And what you're looking at, for the engine build you're talking about, is $30-40,000, will not be torquey if you hit your power desires, and will not be nearly as reliable (length between rebuilds and valve adjustments) as stock. Plus, one error by the engine builder and you suddenly have a $30-40,000 paper weight.

Maybe better to swap in an S62. In the same budget, and you'll have the low end torque you're looking for and the power your looking for.

.... albeit at the cost of weight and weight distribution, as well as the S54s rev happy feel.

[Anri]

-The DOHC S54 valvetrain is different than traditional/conventional V6/V8 engines, and is more like a motorcycle engine. The S54 doesn't require crazy spring pressure to control the valves...even for larger more aggressive cams. True, increased rpm's can shorten valve spring life, but rod bearings are probably a bigger concern than the springs.

-True that modifying an engine's rotating assembly w/aftermarket parts will change the harmonics of an engine, and usually, at the worst rpm's. The stock balancer is generally tuned to a very narrow frequency range, and will become slightly 'out of tune' when the rotating assembly is modified and/or when HP is increased dramatically...but I don't think that I've seen hardly any engine failures that can be traced directly to using a 'good' stock balancer. However, OP still may want to consider an aftermarket balancer if he does build this all-out motor?

Hi Stash1,

Yes the Rocker Arm design is coming from Motorbike engines but but but that
does mean that it will able to get away that easy when pushing the limits.

Think about it, the S54 valves at 36mm over size head diameter which will be required
to achieve the goals of hi HPs is very very heavy for the asking 9000rpm will add weight
on top of the std 35mm head diameter. Same for the Exhaust valves.

Starting from 8000rpm+every gram is very critical to be taken away from the combo
S54 valves are already so light from the factory and improvements are not made with
Supertech or Ferrea std valves....then one moves to Exotic Materials like Ti and narrow
stem diameter, hallow stem etc..

- Valve weight target must be under Factory std road on going valves
- Trick Single valve spring length to reduce weight but not possible because the combo is heavy
- Retainer Ti is a must but short life span...hope for the best not split in 2..
- Lash Cap in fact may add weight (depends of the combo)
- At approx. ~ +/-117.5mm Intake valve length tip to tip
- At approx. ~ +/- 126mm Exhaust valves length
Both intake and exhaust valves are way to long and heavy for the target
9000rpm..


Again per my personal way every single gram it matters here.

The CrN material used in S54 valves is not as light as the Ti used in Motorbike engines.

Increasing the Valve Lift does apply a lot more stress combined with 9000rpm. The
Factory camshaft at 7900rpms turn and beats the valves 65 times per 1 second.

Increasing the revs to 9000rpm will increase the camshaft to open the vales up to 75 times
per-1 second.

That is nearly 10% increase more than std per 1 second give or take.

Some people are not aware from the fact when valve springs do get very Hot
they do lose some rates which must be consider on the table.

S54 valve train runs as I call it "Dry" its just very minimal oil just needed to lube the cams
and rockers all of that to reduce the drag inside the valve train but again no free lunch..
If you look at 50-100k miles S54 and look at the cams with Magnify lens you will see micro
lines, this is on every single S54 I have taken apart and rebuild and seen. Engines with
200k miles cams and rockers do show some ware. I assume part reason why you have
replaced your rocker arm on your build not only because its DLC coated ? Have you seen
camshaft on S14 with 300k miles o S38 camshaft ? they look like just came from your
local Dealer and that is because the camshafts are dipped in oil ones the oil pressure is
there. Again no free lunch here, the rule "you gain here but you lose elsewhere" is alway
part of this big Game.

I have a lot more to say about more stuff that will be needed and require for to increase
the S54 rpm's. To do it properly its not that easy as it sounds.

I have spent a lot of time to improve the S54 as a design and the factors from its Physical Limitations
out of Inline-6 cylinder platform is death end when you have reliability and when you ask for
full out power.

The way I see the S54 as a platform when I build them is #1 reliable power..no one wants
broken crankshafts split in 2 nor $750 shredded dampers because the Second Order Harmonics
with these special strokers are only for the worst never for the better.

S54 with 8000rpm or 8250rpm max if needed to hold on a gear at the track is good enough, don't
get me wrong not that revving to 8500rpm will not be holding up but then engine must be periodically
opened and inspected...and ever time you see the point arrow near 8500 your both ears are wide
open for any un-expected engine noises...


I personally always advice my customers to look things as one big and huge "Package"


Regards,
Anri

[M/Anthony]

Hello,

Thank you for your input, its good to see different aspects being talked about.
I set my gaols decently high to see where the "true" limit was. In this case, it worked out perfectly. Stroking will not be done then and rather a high compression build. I will compliment this with a 4.1 drive ratio, to makeup for torque.
And yes, reliability is a big factor, but I am fine having someone do valve adjustments and working on the engine, since this won't really be daily driven, I just want daily driven possibility.
ATI has a harmonic damper for the s54 which I was looking to get. In the case of oil supply, is there a way to increase it on the s54? E85 will be used throughout this, not pump gas.
For building a more reliable S54, where to begin? It looks as if the valve train and reinforcing that is the hardest part here.
Will then going a billet crankshaft and lighter components, cause more of a concern with the valve train?
What is a way to get a more gradual and linear powerband?
What would be a "package" for this build?

[stash1]

^^^Yes, good general advice Anri. Of course the build should be designed as comprehensively as possible, and I always advice to deal w/one builder only...and locally if possible as well, should a problem/issue arise. My point was just simply that by design this engine doesn't use heavy valvetrain components, compared to traditional type engines w/large cams and heavy valve train components, that require huge valve spring pressures to control valve events. The valve train parts are tiny by comparison in this engine, to even by small-block Chevy stds...not to mention big-block sized parts-lol. To be clear, I'm in no way advocating that OP, or anyone else, spin their motors to 9,000rpm's on the regular. 8,500 rpm's should be more or less the max practical limit that anyone really needs to spin (even a built motor) up to extract 'safe' power out of, but OP asked what was involved in attempting to achieve a 9,000 rpm redline...and it is very doable, but not highly recommended.

[M/Anthony]

^^^Yes, good general advice Anri. Of course the build should be designed as comprehensively as possible, and I always advice to deal w/one builder only...and locally if possible as well, should a problem/issue arise. My point was just simply that by design this engine doesn't use heavy valvetrain components, compared to traditional type engines w/large cams and heavy valve train components, that require huge valve spring pressures to control valve events. The valve train parts are tiny by comparison in this engine, to even by small-block Chevy stds...not to mention big-block sized parts-lol. To be clear, I'm in no way advocating that OP, or anyone else, spin their motors to 9,000rpm's on the regular. 8,500 rpm's should be more or less the max practical limit that anyone really needs to spin (even a built motor) up to extract 'safe' power out of, but OP asked what was involved in attempting to achieve a 9,000 rpm redline...and it is very doable, but not highly recommended.

Yes, I won’t be going 9k rpm every time I drive this car. I want the 9k and building it to where it can handle it, trying to better build a car without saying “best”.
does anyone know much about a member on the e46fanatics, that has a built turbo s54, running a stroker and 9k rpm? I don’t know of an engine builder close to me beside Lang Racing, I do know a machine shop that can do a decent amount of work however.

[Feffman]

I've done a bit of research on valves for my next engine build. The BMW valves are actually lighter than some aftermarket valves.

Stock Valve Weights (grams):
Intake: 47.5
Exhaust: 45.2 [CSL Exhaust: 43.1]

Ferrea
Competition Plus/Single Groove Radial Cut
Intake: 45.4
Exhaust: 48.4

Supertech
Single Groove
Intake: 48.5
Exhaust: 47.7

Triple Groove
Intake: 48.3
Exhaust: 48.5


There are different designs to help flow, etc. To spool at the RPM you are considering I've got to think you'll want a single groove valve stem like most race cars..

Price, well those light CSL exhaust valves alone are around $2,000 from ECS plus around $595 for the stock intake valves. The Ferrea range in price from around $35-$50 each and the Supertech $25-$40 each. The intake valves are stainless and the single-groove exhaust valves are iconel. Ferrea can do titanium valves but if memory servers me correctly, they are around $200 per valve so I didn't ask about weight. I've spreadsheet all this if you want the Excel spreadsheet e-mail Feffman@MVPTrackTime.com

Feff

[jvit27]

I set my gaols decently high to see where the "true" limit was. In this case, it worked out perfectly. Stroking will not be done then and rather a high compression build. I will compliment this with a 4.1 drive ratio, to makeup for torque.
And yes, reliability is a big factor, but I am fine having someone do valve adjustments and working on the engine, since this won't really be daily driven, I just want daily driven possibility.

You do realize that it's a bit silly to build a motor to rev that high and have shorter gearing just to get it up there, when you could prioritize the midrange and have a motor that is 'faster' in the real world and MUCH more reliable?

All of this sounds cool for bragging rights but it will be deemed a waste of money one way or another once you're on the other side of this build... you'd be much better off in every regard by just getting a GT3.