The Official Bring A Trailer (BaT) Thread

[fattycharged]

Obioban you've direct experience with the wagon conversions, I'm currently tempting myself with a purchase on BAT…

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-bmw-323i-sport-wagon-27/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_5902691

Primarily the DSC conversion, doesn’t look like this one has mk60 just looking at the drug bin

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Slideways]

Obioban you've direct experience with the wagon conversions, I'm currently tempting myself with a purchase on BAT…

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-bmw-323i-sport-wagon-27/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_5902691

Primarily the DSC conversion, doesn’t look like this one has mk60 just looking at the drug bin

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You should ask the seller. The ad states the drivetrain swap is from a 2004 M3, so the donor car would have had a MK60. I spoke to a person with a MK20 car and he said that he was going to retrofit a MK60 unit in the passenger side bin. That way, he would not have to retrofit all the hard lines. heinzboehmer did the proper swap, but he might know more about this.

[SQ13]

I spoke to a person with a MK20 car and he said that he was going to retrofit a MK60 unit in the passenger side bin. That way, he would not have to retrofit all the hard lines.

Wait this is possible? Did he tell you what all is needed to do the swap?

[Slideways]

Wait this is possible? Did he tell you what all is needed to do the swap?

https://nam3forum.com/forums/forum/main-forum/e46-2001-2006/189096-mk20-mk60-swap

2. Install the MK60 module in place of the MK20 module.

• This requires very little brake line work and can probably be done in an afternoon. However, you will not get any reduction in complexity or weight. Additionally, there's talk about BMW placing the MK60 module closer to the brake master cylinder for reasons (response times?), so having it in the "wrong" place might not make it behave optimally. To do this, you would need to add unions and bend short bits of brake lines for the two lines that plug in on the side of the MK60 valve block.

[heinzboehmer]

Wait this is possible? Did he tell you what all is needed to do the swap?

I would personally go for option 3 over option 2, but I'm fairly picky with that stuff. The location of the module supposedly changed cause the longer lines affected the response time of the DSC or something like that, but I know of many non-E46 (and even non-BMW) cars that are running an MK60 with no issues. It's a common swap in the Miata world. Also saw an old Volvo wagon at a lemons race running an MK60 that was still coded as a non-M E46 module and the car was performing great on track.

The harness part is a bit annoying if you don't keep the module in the same location (if you do it's just a matter of getting the new connector and moving pins around), but if you do what I did with the adapter harness, it's not that bad. I still have a few of those MK20 connector breakout PCBs if you want one, just let me know.

[George Hill]

fattycharged, I saw the name bidding good luck. The car has an MK20, MK20s have all 6 lines entering the block on one side, MK60 is 4 and 2.

If its an issue you can always swap an MK20 M3 ABS setup onto it vs the MK60 conversion.

If you wanted to MK60 swap it like factory I will have an MK60 touring body harness for sale in a couple months.

[PetrolM3]

fattycharged, I saw the name bidding good luck. The car has an MK20, MK20s have all 6 lines entering the block on one side, MK60 is 4 and 2.

If its an issue you can always swap an MK20 M3 ABS setup onto it vs the MK60 conversion.

If you wanted to MK60 swap it like factory I will have an MK60 touring body harness for sale in a couple months.

Is there a difference between M and non-M MK60 module? Non-M should be much cheaper and easier to find...

[George Hill]

Is there a difference between M and non-M MK60 module? Non-M should be much cheaper and easier to find...

AFAIK the difference is in the electronics, hydraulic units are the same as well as all the supporting components. In this scernario you can swap the M3 MK20 ABS Module onto an Non-M MK20 ABS Hydraulic block, which is what I have done for factory MK20 cars converted to M3.

[nextelbuddy]

Obioban you've direct experience with the wagon conversions, I'm currently tempting myself with a purchase on BAT…
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-bmw-323i-sport-wagon-27/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign =campaign_5902691
Primarily the DSC conversion, doesn’t look like this one has mk60 just looking at the drug bin

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i would highly suggest you give some thought before bidding. there are things bidders should be aware of when dealing with swapped cars of this nature. might look pretty on the outside but need to be aware of the potentials first.


they chose the oldest /hardest e46 chassis to start with. the 323 which started out life as a mechanical throttle pedal. this means they had to add the 6 wires for the electronic throttle pedal to the body hardness to run to the DME box to connect into x60004 dme connector. they still have the original PACMAN Round diagnostic connector under the hood which means any time you want to connect to a module in the car other than the DME, you need a Round DIAG to rectangle OBD2 connector conversion pigtail unless you bridge 2 pins in the round connector to route diagnostic signal back to the OBD2 port under the dash which currently only supports emissions communication and basic Diagnostic tool generic P code read out.

everything in the car is going to be old ad not updated. if you want to add a blue bus for example, the connector in the back normally reserved for the factory Bluetooth module that you use for bluebus, will need a conversion harness. it wont have CD changer or ibus capabilities out of the box and need conversion harnesses.

the wiring that had to be done in the DME box will be much more hacked as the body harness electronics in the DME bod was different on 323 cars and 325 and above DME box power connections needed to be added.to bring it up to M3 engine harness connection specs.

323 cars never came with the updated Heated DMTL or DMTL canister in the back. most people code that functionality out but if you want to get BARd... you will need that retrofitted in and wired into the car all the way up to the DME box.

in the comments the seller mentioned that they tried to get BARd and failed because of the CAL CVN and CAL ID mismatch... well this is because they are running a modified TUNE file to delete EWS and most likely a host of other codes coded out to resolve CELs for emissions options that are not present. They dont realize that they actually need EWS present and they need a stock UNtouched factory 6MT file flashed via WINKFP to the DME and they are using a DME that was in an SMG car so they most likely used software to change it to 6MT and delete EWS and rear O2s etc....

retrofitting MK6o will be a nightmare. - you will need to replace brake lines, remove the MK20 Charge pump and replace the Master cylinder, brake booster, booster vac line to the Air rail, and create a retrofit MK60 harness to bring over the connector to the driver side annd add in the DSC/Yaw sensor under the seat. lots of wiring and will require removing the dash and carpet to do it cleanly.

also the car is so old that when you use programs like INPA or NCS Expert etc... you will have issues coding defaults in modules. this wagon has a win with AR33 in it which means it uses the older SA and not the newer VO language so if you want to code defaults for your GM5 module or Airbag module or any other non M3 module... when you go to read the SA... you will have to read the EWS module. and thats if they didnt swap in the M3 EWS module like some people try to do to get around EWS delete.. if you read the Cluster it will fail and say it has a VIN mismatch as well as doent contain SA... the cluster contains the newer VO language.



im sure the car runs fine and most things work but with as many things that have the be hacked or changed or rewired to get things "right" it becomes a real mess if you ever need to go clean up something or take it to a shop and have them diagnose something or if you are DIYing and didnt build the car yourself.. now you are trying to figure out if your issue is related to something new or is it related to something with the swap or is it related to something done wrong with the swap etc...


ive done many S54 swaps and also a few of these 323 specific swaps myself and its hard to get the car "right" there are so many unknowns with a swap car especially on an older chassis like this and for a crowd like BAT where many people that buy the car need/want/expect a car to just work.



for the DSC, like george said, its best to just get the M3 MK20 DSC module and replace the 323 MK20 module and be done but theres a caveat... when you install it, you will need to update the VIN in it to match the Cluster and the Steering angle sensor... if you install the module in the car and try to code it, NCS expert or ISTA will bark at you and tell you the module doesnt match parameters because its expecting the 323 non M module not the M3 MK20 module. you will need to use PAsoft/bmw scanner to change the VIN since it doesnt care like the other BMW apps do.


sorry for the info dump but its a lot going on and anyone who buys that car needs to be well informed of what to expect before a purchase.

[PetrolM3]

Personally, I would only consider buying such a conversion from a true conversion expert with a reputation on this very forum. nextelbuddy above makes it very clear why not all S54/wagon conversions fit in the same category. I'd rather pay $50K for a truly clean conversion than $25K for a messy one that will end up costing $50K in the long run yet never be truly clean.

[oceansize]

I came to the same conclusion years ago. I would either commission a wagon or do it myself. No such thing as a deal with this level of effort so you commit to the hard yards as well as a big pocket book should you not DIY. If you buy from an auction you can't hold anyone accountable, including yourself, for the prior work performed. You're buying the car as-is. Not even a PPI from a trusted source would cut it for me. I would have to drive the car, drive it again, then drive it again, and then personally get it on a rack which nobody is going to want or let me do. No half efforts on something like this.

[maw1124]

+1 on all the above... I'd need to be intricately involved in the work. Cars are too complex, and every piece is an opportunity for cut corners and shortcuts. It's actually why we trust the factories, which have way more knowledge and way more at stake than "that guy over there" who did a swap.

maw

[fattycharged]

Appreciate all the responses, none of which do I want to deal with. Guess my wagon dreams should start at the beginning…
I won’t be surprised if this still hits $50k. The builders response that he’d “have to check” tapped my interest out for the most part, he knows exactly what he’s got, this isn’t his first build…

[fattycharged]

Personally, I would only consider buying such a conversion from a true conversion expert with a reputation on this very forum. nextelbuddy above makes it very clear why not all S54/wagon conversions fit in the same category. I'd rather pay $50K for a truly clean conversion than $25K for a messy one that will end up costing $50K in the long run yet never be truly clean.

I won't be surprised if this one hits $50k


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nextelbuddy]

I won't be surprised if this one hits $50k


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's also several things going on with that build that other people who are not well versed don't see

There's some interesting gaps in the custom metal fenders in the front, mainly near the side skirt cover rocker area, the rear bumper even though he decided to keep the plastic trim in the middle, which is not always the prettiest way to go, the rear corners have the same typical Gap that you get when you don't cut out the inside corners and swap in the ones from the touring bumper because the M3 bumper inside corners do not match up with touring rear quarter panel very well.

It's missing the side marker lights on the fenders in the fender trim piece. It's not exactly very easy to do that so whoever buys it probably won't know how to do that or what to do so it'll never get done.

The side mirrors are not OEM or genuine original. They're not M3. They are the eBay M5 replica mirrors so they look a little wonky on the E46 chassis. It takes a lot of work to get the original m31s to fit because the base plates need to be modified and electrically. Sometimes they need modification if the sedan or wagon has linbus style electronics instead of the standard 6/12 pin connectors and the m3s

It doesn't have the factory gloss black shadow line trim that the M sport wagons came with from Germany. It just has the standard black matte trim that the sport wagons came with. Since it is early E46 323 the rear quarter window has an integrated molding trim in it, so you actually cannot change that very easily to a gloss trim. You have to replace the whole window and those are very hard to source

If you look at some of the pictures from underneath, you'll notice that the aluminum belly pan is missing Quite a few bolts because the early E46 cars the chassis is missing specific threaded inserts in the body that the later cars had. So you cannot actually bolt in the belly pan with all of the bolts which is a stiffening plate issue

It's also a lot more difficult to wire in bixenon headlights on that car since it would require wiring in the level sensors and the adjustment motor to the light control module which wasn't done on that car, you can see in the engine bay the headlight connector is a single xenon. They may have installed bixenon headlight assemblies but they're not wired correctly.

The oil cap is a non-m oil cap

Valve cover gasket looks like a non-genuine BMW you can see it's kind of wavy and sticking out and the engine made pictures which means it's not up to genuine BMW tolerances

It doesn't have the M3 v brace on the bottom or the proper connection points that have to be built and welded in

The needles in the cluster are severely faded, almost white so either that cluster came out of a convertible car or it's been in the Sun and it's a very old cluster like coding index 21 or 22.