Best set of coil overs(or other options) for my M3 for my very specific needs?

[bigjae46]

Yeah you've been around as long or longer than me and know very well that "generally accepted bmw tuning practices" are BULLSHIT and flat out wrong! The moment I went to flat ride with the old mcs dampers while everyone on the old forum was skeptical, the ride quality drastically improved, the grip to compliance ratio also improved greatly. That and my laguna time dropped 2-3 seconds from just the springs. Went from 750/850 to 425/850 springs on MCS 2WNR.

Now go with my FCM setup where I kept the spring rates the same just to see how drastic a damper setup changed the car and holy crap its what I thought I was buying into with a "motorsport damper" from all the "tried and true accepted" bmw setups everyone preaches based off marketing hype more than data that justifies it. I'm over the days of buying into things off opinions. Let me experience it and/or give me the data to justify the claims at the minimum and then I'll make a logical purchasing decision.

Not only did the FCM setup make the compliance to grip ratio on another level of what the MCS 2WNR setup was with the same spring rates, but two of the biggest improvements I noticed right away on when pushing the car on bumpy backroads is how fast the car settles from bumps and how unphased the ABS is now when hitting bumps under threshold braking. Before with the MCS and an MK60, if I hit a bump when threshold braking or close to it the abs system would panic and the car would get unsettled and just be sketchy. With the FCM setup this is no longer a thing. I can just focus on driving because the suspension is doing its job to control the chassis so everything else can do its intended job. I talked to Shaikh first hand about this and outside of non ideal valving, a big one was the gas pressure being too high on the MCS 2WNR so anytime you hit a bump even with flat ride spring, the damper would jerk the car because it takes so much more gas force for the damper to even start moving compared to say an FCM damper that opens much earlier and still can handle the optimal high spring rates you need for flat ride.

With the old setup I stopped driving the car on backroads or anything bumpy for years because "the car couldn't handle it" and just drove smooth tracks which is kinda fake because even a racecar needs to be able to handle bumps and curbing at triple digit speeds. For testing, I have two buddies I independently took as passenger during all these changes so I could have a second opinion of feedback just to make it interesting. I went from not really driving backroads to "lets find the worst condition backroad in the area and see if I can upset the car." Well that last part, we haven't found a backroad that the car didn't work reasonably when pushing the car. That's impressive!

All in all, I truly love the FCM and can't wait to get back to the track once my health improves and really see what it can do. The limit is so high on the street I'm already going to jail trying to reach it hahaha.

But listen to this video from Ryan at Performance Eurowerks who races W2W for PE and hear what he has to say after moving from MCS 3 way to FCM. I texted Alex before committing and he said "the FCM stuff is indeed legit."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szZvQaQVnSI&t=608s

I am super excited that more and more people are finally listening to Shaikh's principles and seeing for themselves that this flat ride stuff is not bs and really is a game changer if put in the time to dial in the car. People just need to open their eyes because Shaikh is WAY under appreciated in my eyes.

Lastly, I got asked "but your paying 6k for no adjustment knobs." Well you know what... that was a selling point to me because you're paying a qualified suspension engineer to optimize 4 way dampening curves and chassis setup to as close to what you will be using your specific car for so you dont have to keep playing with knobs and require a suspension engineer to be in the paddock with you for every adjustment because that in itself requires data to justify changes that the average joe is just guessing. With FCM for instance, I pay Shaikh to figure it out for my needs and the dampening, (arguably the most complex part of car setup) is done and I can focus on chassis balance through less complicated variables such as spring rates, chassis rake, bump stops, swaybars, camber, toe, tire pressure, etc.

A couple of specific observations which line up with yours…

1. Bumps in braking zones don’t really affect the car.

2. I can brake pretty hard while turning. This has opened a whole new world of possibilities. I’m literally accelerating about a full .2-.3 seconds longer into turns where there is a kink on the entry which requires turning into the braking zone.

3. The car just turns in at low speeds under braking, not as much aero gains here. I am significantly faster in low speed turns.

4. I can get the power down much better. Part of this was deleting the rear sway bar…an idea inspired by one of Sheik’s videos. Everyone tells me this is slower, I disagree. I can get to full throttle so soon that I can hold off GT3s, ZL1s, and other cars with twice the power on decently long straights. I gain so much early on that by the time they start pulling on me, there’s a turn. The exception is COTA because the straights are so long.

5. Bumps no longer upset the car. There is a bump at turn 7 at Hallett in OK. That is one example where I had to lift. I haven’t been back since but I’m willing to bet that I can go full throttle over it now.

[Cronenberged]

So what you're saying is, if you had to do it all over again, you'd end up with BC Racing coilovers. Got it.

Appreciate the detailed post. Out of more curiosity, does Shaikh steer you towards a higher ride height rather than lower? The pic of your car (sig line) is lower than I would have expected. Don't get me wrong - it's badass looking - but I'm curious if this comes into play at all and to what degree. Another hotly contested topic is ride height, so just curious if he analyzes suspension curves as part of this stuff.

Happy New Year!

EDIT: I've spent the last hour reading up on FCM. There is no way ride height does not come into the equation.

It does but he tunes it specifically to the height you want he doesn't persuade (at least me) anyone to specific height. On his 330 it's pretty low I believe below 13" of ride height and on his YouTube you can see how smooth it is in comparison to other cars bouncing on the track.

[thegenius46m]

So what you're saying is, if you had to do it all over again, you'd end up with BC Racing coilovers. Got it.

Appreciate the detailed post. Out of more curiosity, does Shaikh steer you towards a higher ride height rather than lower? The pic of your car (sig line) is lower than I would have expected. Don't get me wrong - it's badass looking - but I'm curious if this comes into play at all and to what degree. Another hotly contested topic is ride height, so just curious if he analyzes suspension curves as part of this stuff.

Happy New Year!

EDIT: I've spent the last hour reading up on FCM. There is no way ride height does not come into the equation.

I'll be honest... he recommends not going lower than 13" front and 12.5 rear or whatever it is that is common knowledge to be min height for proper travel and control arm angles, etc. I talked to him about this for 2hrs and he said what people don't realize is that below that min 13" height up front the suspension efficiency gets EXPONENTIALLY worse and he explained the dyno curve to back up that claim. Well when I threw the FCM setup on I think I was 12.5 front and I forget the rear because it was a quick and dirty setup and I really just got overly anxious to try the setup out. Also camber was eyeballed so ride height could only be so particular until an alignment. Well the car was already so much better than the MCS setup that I was really happy, but during our call I mentioned some things about the car getting into the bumpstop too early and he asked "what are your ride heights?" then explained the theory above about how crucial this variable truly is to car setup. Well I raised the car 1/4 of an inch all around and I shit you not it was drastic. The car is no longer hitting the bumpstop like it was and it just works beautifully AND I'm still technically too low lol. That is wild.

The sig pic is on the old suspension and idk what it was honestly but the whole "set ride heights to look cool" is retarded. This is calculated science to be done right if you care about performance. I think I'm currently at 12 7/8 front and 12 3/8 rear and I actually am eventually planning to raise the car maybe 1-4-1/2" all around. I have no real issues as is no matter how hard I push the car, which is part of why I haven't done anything yet along with the fact that my 6" spring may coil bind up front if I go any taller. It does not right now. I do want to do some more experimenting later on with some spring rate changes, maybe even softer than 425/850 which would necessitate the raise in height, but every time I think about doing it I drive the car and it just works so well as is that I procrastinate touching it because I can't find anything to complain about that that is truly bothering me anymore like the old mcs suspension.

This is current height on an aggressive TE37SL setup on track tires and the car functionally takes everything I throw at on very sprinted canyon runs and me chucking it into every corner I can get my hands on and it does not rub. I got the top of the tire to just barely rub the fender liner on a VERY aggressive dip at like 60mph on a backroad with a friend in the car and that is amazing. The MCS setup would have launched me off the road.

Here are some pics of the current functional height. Idk I'm getting old and at times I think its a tad too low aesthetically but Shaikh did such a good job with this setup with how well it works that I've just been to lazy to touch it because it DOES work. Lol

[thegenius46m]

A couple of specific observations which line up with yours…

1. Bumps in braking zones don’t really affect the car.

2. I can brake pretty hard while turning. This has opened a whole new world of possibilities. I’m literally accelerating about a full .2-.3 seconds longer into turns where there is a kink on the entry which requires turning into the braking zone.

3. The car just turns in at low speeds under braking, not as much aero gains here. I am significantly faster in low speed turns.

4. I can get the power down much better. Part of this was deleting the rear sway bar…an idea inspired by one of Sheik’s videos. Everyone tells me this is slower, I disagree. I can get to full throttle so soon that I can hold off GT3s, ZL1s, and other cars with twice the power on decently long straights. I gain so much early on that by the time they start pulling on me, there’s a turn. The exception is COTA because the straights are so long.

5. Bumps no longer upset the car. There is a bump at turn 7 at Hallett in OK. That is one example where I had to lift. I haven’t been back since but I’m willing to bet that I can go full throttle over it now.

Yup it is truly amazing! It's funny... until I bought my ZHP with stock sport dampers and started hooning it in the canyons constantly while the M3 was down for almost a year during the engine build, I forgot what true compliance was like to be able to hit bumps, dips, ruts in the road, etc and not have to worry about upsetting the car. Then I met Shaikh and went over all this suspension theory that lined up with my findings after driving his car, my stock refreshed zhp, the m3 mcs setup at the time, etc and just gained a whole book worth of additional knowledge about how an why this stuff works. A key takeaway here is that soft is actually faster and that you only should be using as much spring as you need to get the job done because the chassis can't allow you to drive properly if its oversprung and/or overdamped is constantly fighting itself every time you hit anything but a smooth surface.

I trail brake all the time and like you said it is so nice to be able to not even worry about the car getting upset while doing so because the suspension has the compliance to allow me to do so. I can spend my timing focusing on the line and braking, acceleration and turn in points more affectively than worrying about how I need to compensate for the car getting upset. It's truly how a suspension should be setup. Hence why a lot of oems are doing it too just with much softer rates for the typical consumer. People that deviate from this stuff by picking these arbitrary spring rates that deviate from flat ride end up chasing their tales wondering why the car doesn't do what they want anymore and its truly kinda comical to me now. Both my E46s have flat ride and I could not be happier.

Oh and regarding your swaybar theory... yes I believe that for sure. I came from the miata scene and this was a common thing guys did and it DOES indeed work, but like anything it is largely a preference thing. I'm not personally a fan of it from a feel perspective but I have seen plenty of data and theory to support the claim of its effectiveness. I'm a firm believer that driver preference to setup is what truly makes you be able to push harder because if you aren't comfortable in your setup you can't really expect to get faster unless you're an extreme risk taker and don't care to crash which isn't a good thing lol.

[t44tq]

TLDR: this is typical post for me. Seems TMI. Probably is. But it saves answering all the questions I would get. I think ALL the info is in this first request for advice.

My needs (M3 Daily driver)
1) More comfort, especially over broken pavement and pot holes in SE Florida.
2) MUCH better high speed dampening and control at Autobahn speeds....130mph to 170mph .. in the South MEXICAN Express Lanes,
3) Cost: got to be under $3.5K including hats, and camber/caster adjuster, springs etc. I self install. NO problem there. Must have caster adjustment.

4) Application: DAILY driver 50/50 hwy/urban on decent to POOR highway(I-95) , mediocre urban streets(Commercial Blvd). Rim bending potholes in some places. 25mile round trip
5) The EXPRESS LANES in South Florida are essentially the Autobahn when no one else is around. State Police are prohibited tp pull you over(NO ROOM!) except when you might blast off at the end of a stretch of the toll lane. Some dual lane, some single lane. But I would NEVER speed there. ONLY in Southern Mexico!

I know it's not very helpful, but my stock suspension works just fine at 130+ and that's on crappy PA roads.

Just to add to the FCM comments- unless you are a suspension/chassis engineer or have one on retainer, you will not be very successful in setting up a 3-way or 4-way shock. That's most likely why FCM doesn't use shocks with external adjustments- just a way for the owner to screw things up.

[elbert]

Well I raised the car 1/4 of an inch all around and I shit you not it was drastic. The car is no longer hitting the bumpstop like it was and it just works beautifully AND I'm still technically too low lol. That is wild.

A couple of questions:
- What bump stops are you using?
- How are you checking if your car is hitting the bumpstops or not?

[thegenius46m]

I know it's not very helpful, but my stock suspension works just fine at 130+ and that's on crappy PA roads.

Just to add to the FCM comments- unless you are a suspension/chassis engineer or have one on retainer, you will not be very successful in setting up a 3-way or 4-way shock. That's most likely why FCM doesn't use shocks with external adjustments- just a way for the owner to screw things up.

This is 100% the case! I have a friend who races professionally and one of the local tracks they spent months testing to run a SINGLE config and had data and a suspension engineer to justify damping change adjustments, so an amateur, forget it.

[thegenius46m]

A couple of questions:
- What bump stops are you using?
- How are you checking if your car is hitting the bumpstops or not?

Disconnect the swaybar and jack up the wheel. To confirm real world function I pushed the car as hard as I could "within my safe limits of course" on canyon roads I knew were pretty violent with bumps and dips and the car passed even with my aggressive fitment.

[bigjae46]

Yup it is truly amazing! It's funny... until I bought my ZHP with stock sport dampers and started hooning it in the canyons constantly while the M3 was down for almost a year during the engine build, I forgot what true compliance was like to be able to hit bumps, dips, ruts in the road, etc and not have to worry about upsetting the car. Then I met Shaikh and went over all this suspension theory that lined up with my findings after driving his car, my stock refreshed zhp, the m3 mcs setup at the time, etc and just gained a whole book worth of additional knowledge about how an why this stuff works. A key takeaway here is that soft is actually faster and that you only should be using as much spring as you need to get the job done because the chassis can't allow you to drive properly if its oversprung and/or overdamped is constantly fighting itself every time you hit anything but a smooth surface.

I trail brake all the time and like you said it is so nice to be able to not even worry about the car getting upset while doing so because the suspension has the compliance to allow me to do so. I can spend my timing focusing on the line and braking, acceleration and turn in points more affectively than worrying about how I need to compensate for the car getting upset. It's truly how a suspension should be setup. Hence why a lot of oems are doing it too just with much softer rates for the typical consumer. People that deviate from this stuff by picking these arbitrary spring rates that deviate from flat ride end up chasing their tales wondering why the car doesn't do what they want anymore and its truly kinda comical to me now. Both my E46s have flat ride and I could not be happier.

Oh and regarding your swaybar theory... yes I believe that for sure. I came from the miata scene and this was a common thing guys did and it DOES indeed work, but like anything it is largely a preference thing. I'm not personally a fan of it from a feel perspective but I have seen plenty of data and theory to support the claim of its effectiveness. I'm a firm believer that driver preference to setup is what truly makes you be able to push harder because if you aren't comfortable in your setup you can't really expect to get faster unless you're an extreme risk taker and don't care to crash which isn't a good thing lol.

I will say that you can probably run a little faster on a slightly higher spring rate on really smooth tracks.

But...fast forward to 7:05...pulled 1.6 g's on Toyo RRs. The data comes from an Aim SoloDL and my understanding is that it is fairly accurate. I think that speaks to the possibilities with challenging some tried and true setups.

[S14]

I love the FCM left turn this thread took

[Tbonem3]

All susp threads will from here on out.

[thegenius46m]

I will say that you can probably run a little faster on a slightly higher spring rate on really smooth tracks.

But...fast forward to 7:05...pulled 1.6 g's on Toyo RRs. The data comes from an Aim SoloDL and my understanding is that it is fairly accurate. I think that speaks to the possibilities with challenging some tried and true setups.

Data and results don't lie

[thegenius46m]

I love the FCM left turn this thread took

It was only 10 yrs of people asking these suspension questions with constant recommendations on bs setups that were solely based on opinions from people without an engineering background or data to support their claims and it took one guy to open everyones eyes and now people are finally realizing he was right.

[BigDave]

Why is caster adjustment a must? I suggest pss with OE mounts

My BC Racing camber plates had no caster adjustment. My Turner and TCK camber plates DO/did have caster adjustment. The E46 M3 tracks best when set to full positive camber. I could feel the difference NOT having caster adjustment in my BC Racing plates. It is significantly a better, safer ride to have a caster adjustment option.

Most of the cheap Asian plates have camber ONLY. Your better plates made elsewhere cost more and have a caster adjustment. There is a reason for this.

[BigDave]

You really should take time to read about the fat cat motorsports flat ride. I don't have the links on hand. Then proceed to do what you think is best off of that. A flat ride set up can range from $800-skys the limit based on what you need to do. I personally am having Shaikh build me a stage 3 set up which isn't cheap but everyone whose doing suspensions right is using his math as basis for their set ups.

I have read his posts. I have emailed/PM'd him a few times a few years ago. But even running the recommended 450lb springs in front with my 30mm H&R anti sway bar, I still bottom out BADLY on any kind of dip in the road taken at even 45mph!!! I have some 550 TCK springs that I have to install. Maybe I got some lemons, but my SA front TCKs are WAY under dampened for my heavier cabrio M3. I bet I am close to 3,800 lbs.

I don't know if Fat Cats can really make me what I need/want.

The BEST dampeners I ever had was a single rear shock and spring custom made for me by Penske for my 2001 Honda Blackbird XXX. It was crazy adjustable. It had high AND low speed dampening adjustment. . It took five days of fiddling to get it PERFECT for any kind of road surface. Even on the worst horrific broken roads out West towards the Indian Reservations, the "Bird would float over the nastiness at triple digits like it was a smooth road. I am still impressed to this day.

Its really BIG $$ to get high AND low speed damping. I want that for for my car. Plus, I am going back to my union and big ships, so I will have funds to track my car more at Sebring. I hate the idea of spending a fortune with Fat Cats and not being able to fine tune the dampers myself. I think you get what he builds for you.... and it is all fixed. I have not spoken to him in a while. Maybe things have changed.