Suspension refresh - critique my life choices

[01SG]

The rollbar debate has been beat to death in the Honda community, and in 20+ years I've never see one person that has bashed their heads open on a rollbar on the street, but I've seen several threads where people crashed and the rollbar either helped, or flat out saved their life.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Your Honda forum evidence is clearly a small and worthless sample. Bars and cages make the car less safe on the street, period. 99% chance you will never roll over unless you're a moron "According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), approximately 3% of all car accidents involve rollover crashes" but being rear-ended or in an otherwise normal accident is plenty likely. Look at the people who drive Cobras.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-...ield-test.html - "I'm pretty sure now the forward brace on the roll bar is what I smashed my shoulder on, and I'm also convinced that because I was only wearing my lap belts I was able to crunch forward and keep my head away from impacting the hoop when the car went backwards"

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/back...ar-yes-no.html - "The most recent whack to the head was Jason"

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-...act-cobra.html - "I have a buddy who is getting over a blunt-force trauma injury to the head due to a very minor mishap, but his head hit the unpadded roll bar"

And one from the Miata forum for good measure: https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=140416 - "Today, I was rear-ended at a relatively low speed, and hit my head on my unpadded Hard Dog Sport Rollbar."

Another relating to a Boxster: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...hy-cant-i.html "My wife hit her head--hard, bloody, required several stitches--on our Boxster's roll hoop"

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ussion-2.html: "A guy I went to highschool with died when his beautiful bugeye sprite with a nice chrome roll bar was rear ended. A coworker of my wife's only got a concussion when his Miata with a roll bar was rear ended."

Oh, and do you think a bar just in the back is safe? From the same thread:

"In my years of building a variety of hot rods, I've spent a lot of time in u-pick-it junkyards. Almost every rear ender of sufficient force has the seat back broken and was laying in the backseat. Unfortunately, Byron, I think your head would be NSFW if you got rear ended."

"Many think the seatback is the safe boundary between head and bar. However, seatback strength is quite variable. Realize there are minimal standards for seatback strength (as in a rear collision) and standards for aftermarket seats is your best guess."

"I guess you will hit the bar far easier then you think....in case of a crash your seat breaks easier then you think....seat is at least 15years old,friend of me had the same seat in his Golf, he was laying on the rear seat after he spun his car in the rain and slided backwards into a ditch....at pretty low speed...Your safety feature is going to kill you if this happens...."

Once you install a bar/cage, the car should only be driven with a helmet. And no amount of padding will really help you. But hey, it's your head....

And this article references legitimate studies of seat back collapse in collisions: https://carseatblog.com/38404/collap...at-can-you-do/

[9kracing]

OK.

Not sure what 2 seat convertibles have to do with our M3s though.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-acura-28/autopower-cage-saves-my-friends-lives-pics-inside-1495699/

[01SG]

I'd be more worried about the seat in our case. Short of a braced, full racing seat, the danger is there. Even then, they can deform.

Roll overs simply don't happen that often. You are much, much more likely to be rear-ended. That guy was obviously driving far too fast for the road.

[Casa de Mesa]

Man that Honda-tech thread is nuts 9kracing


My new-to-me Cayman came with a rollbar in it. Previous owner had harnesses and a race seat, I'm pretty sure. Because of the mid-engine, there is a wall directly behind the front seats that [if the seat collapses in a rearend impact] would prevent the seat from going back only so far. Even then, I'm super weary about driving around on the street with the bar. I padded it with SFI padding. I also reclined the seat back as far as it will go and tried to see how close my noggin would get to the bar. It's ways away, but with a 3-point stock seat belt, I just don't know how far my body would toss around in a wreck and if it could hit the bar. The answer is likely yes under the right circumstances.

I'm heavily leaning towards removing it for street use. Under some conditions, it would potentially save a life. Under some conditions, it would potentially take a life. Hard to know what the right decision is sometimes.

[Casa de Mesa]

Why a bump steer kit? I'm on OE tie rods, never really ran into a steering issue although my front ride height is higher than most track E46s.

I'm in this camp too on the bumpsteer kit, but I too run my car a little higher than most do.

Nate047 Regarding your question on fasteners/hardware, if you're doing the entire suspension refresh, I'd just replace all suspension related bolts. If you don't know their service history and if they've been properly torqued (or not) previously, for the $$ you're throwing at the car, it's nice to have peace of mind that the fasteners have been installed/torqued correctly. Especially for track use. You can then baseline everything from this point forward.

[Nate047]

Okay guys just to reiterate, I'm putting in Racetech 4100W seats which are fixed back, high quality racing seats. I will also be putting pads on the roll bar, maybe I failed to mention that earlier. Additionally I have 6-point Lifeline Copse harnesses.

I am now also, in light of this conversation, considering mounting the seats in a fixed position to the floor instead of using a slider, and doing the Racetech back brace which mounts to the harness bar. Not sure how much I need sliders? Putting a set of 4 wheels and tires in the car will be hard without them. Gonna think on that a little.

[Nate047]

Nate047 Regarding your question on fasteners/hardware, if you're doing the entire suspension refresh, I'd just replace all suspension related bolts. If you don't know their service history and if they've been properly torqued (or not) previously, for the $$ you're throwing at the car, it's nice to have peace of mind that the fasteners have been installed/torqued correctly. Especially for track use. You can then baseline everything from this point forward.

Good call. Is there like a master list anyone has compiled, before I go checking all the diagrams on RealOEM?

[01SG]

I am no expert on seats, but my little research turned up a lot of questions and concerns. I have actually noticed some conflicting opinions on bracing as well. Race seats are hard to get out of if you need to exit the car in a hurry. They limit visibility. They have a hard back and can hurt just to hit the headrest. Sliders appear to be safe if you get the right ones, but I wouldn't take the internets word for it.

I would solicit a professional builders opinion on these things before making any major decisions. It's not something to screw around with.

[Casa de Mesa]

Okay guys just to reiterate, I'm putting in Racetech 4100W seats which are fixed back, high quality racing seats. I will also be putting pads on the roll bar, maybe I failed to mention that earlier. Additionally I have 6-point Lifeline Copse harnesses.

I am now also, in light of this conversation, considering mounting the seats in a fixed position to the floor instead of using a slider, and doing the Racetech back brace which mounts to the harness bar. Not sure how much I need sliders? Putting a set of 4 wheels and tires in the car will be hard without them. Gonna think on that a little.

I hear you. Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one

Sounds to me like you're approaching it the right way. Also Racetech makes some really nice stuff.

[Casa de Mesa]

Good call. Is there like a master list anyone has compiled, before I go checking all the diagrams on RealOEM?

Try this. It's from 2020 when I did mine. Double check the accuracy of things, but I went through RealOEM and dumped pics of the schematics and part numbers into Excel. My car is a 2003 but a 09/2002 build date.

This is an Excel file that I renamed to a .pdf. So save this locally, remove the ".pdf" and rock it.

[bigjae46]

Okay guys just to reiterate, I'm putting in Racetech 4100W seats which are fixed back, high quality racing seats. I will also be putting pads on the roll bar, maybe I failed to mention that earlier. Additionally I have 6-point Lifeline Copse harnesses.

I am now also, in light of this conversation, considering mounting the seats in a fixed position to the floor instead of using a slider, and doing the Racetech back brace which mounts to the harness bar. Not sure how much I need sliders? Putting a set of 4 wheels and tires in the car will be hard without them. Gonna think on that a little.

I think no sliders is the way to go. If for no other reason it improves the feel of the seat.

If you have the industry standard floor mount adaptors - you can ditch those. And I don't understand all of the issue with roll bars and street driving when people willingly install the VAC-style floor mount adaptors with no questions asked. Those adaptors have about 3/8" of aluminum under the bolt head which after multiple torque cycles will gall. Aluminum is low strength and soft.

Here are my floor mounts using 3/4" aluminum billet. Cost $50 for both sides. And aluminum is relatively easy to drill since its soft. Use a forstener bit to counter sink the holes for the OEM bolt/nut location.



I've since made some carbon fiber floor mounts. 3/8" thick carbon.

[Nate047]

I think if I decide to ditch the slider, I will go with Brey Krause direct to floor mounts. No one except me will really be driving this car and certainly no one taller than me that I can foresee.

Try this. It's from 2020 when I did mine. Double check the accuracy of things, but I went through RealOEM and dumped pics of the schematics and part numbers into Excel. My car is a 2003 but a 09/2002 build date.

This is an Excel file that I renamed to a .pdf. So save this locally, remove the ".pdf" and rock it.

Thanks! Looks like I'm spending some more money today lol

[Nate047]

Okay so what’s the group approved tool kit or setup for doing all these rear end bushings?

[bmwfnatic]

Okay so what’s the group approved tool kit or setup for doing all these rear end bushings?

If you already have the RTAB tool, it obviously works on the RTAB, but also for removing the subframe bushes.

For everything else, I mostly use some Chinese kit with threaded rods and cups, you can find it on Amazon if you type "26pc bushing tool".
There are loads of sellers selling it, just opt for the cheapest one since they are all the same.

I recently purchased a nice press, a great addition to my home workshop, so I'll mostly be using that from now on, albeit still with the cups from the Amazon tool mentioned above.

[01SG]

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-580410-trailing-arm-bushing-and-ball-joint-tool-master-set-bavarian-autosport/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrqaelrPTgAMVaUNHAR0q5AycEAQYAiABEgL4R_D_BwE

This kit works well for the ball-joints and RTABs. You can probably find the same sort of thing cheaper on Amazon or whatever. But I've used this exact one with great success.

And here are the directions it doesn't come with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyLfedKkaBA