Brake Pads: PFC 08's are high adventure...anyone tried 331 332?

[heinzboehmer]

I've found that bedding track pads in on the street to be a waste of time if you're driving on them to get to the track. By the time I arrive, the transfer layer seems to be completely gone from the rotors.

I do something similar to what eacmen mentioned to bed my pads in on the first session of the day. I'll also lightly left foot brake through long sweeping corners to help the pads get up to temp quicker. A combination of both these things means I can usually get the pads bedded in on the first lap, but that depends on traffic of course.

Just figured I'd put this out there since there's a bedding conversation going on.

[OldRanger]

PFC Europe website has a better compound comparison chart for just the endurance/sprint compounds. Their description:

• 331 is the next generation of PFC endurance material. Improved control with ABS, and gentle on discs.
• The 331 Carbon Metallic ® compound has been developed with higher initial bite than PFC’s renowned 08 endurance compound.
• The 331 has improved release, and continues to offer exceptional control and feel. It boasts low wear rate and exceptional disc conditioning.

Bimmerworld's product description: "We collaborated with PFC on this pad and it has been specifically engineered around BMW ABS systems where the torque slightly tapers back as temperature rises. Development focused on modulation and release to achieve superior braking, which is critical with an ABS car. Brake balance is shifted slightly rearward, but with fading torque at increased temperatures, this allows a driver to carry more speed to apex of a corner, and usually results in better trail braking and corner speed due to happier tires. These characteristics also benefit non-ABS cars where an eye on tire wear at peak braking will help extend tire life. The 331 is used on our pro cars typically in endurance environments (extremely long lifespan) where avoiding a pad change in the pits, as well as tire wear and tire performance over longer stints, is critical."

I wish PFC would quantify the y-axis, but I suppose that gives away competitive information

[fourmula1]

I track/race 331 and 332 and they work well for me. Stock calipers and rotors. Full aero/slicks etc.

[bigjae46]

I track/race 331 and 332 and they work well for me. Stock calipers and rotors. Full aero/slicks etc.

Did you ever use PF01s or PF11s?

[fourmula1]

Did you ever use PF01s or PF11s?

No, unfortunately cant offer any comparison to those. I used pagid yellows for a while and these are infinitely better in my opinion.

[bigjae46]

No, unfortunately cant offer any comparison to those. I used pagid yellows for a while and these are infinitely better in my opinion.

What was better? Initial bite? I didn't like the dull feel of the pagid yellows.

[fourmula1]

What was better? Initial bite? I didn't like the dull feel of the pagid yellows.

They are just consistent in all phases. Bite is always there, never bind, smooth release, don’t fade, last way longer.

[eacmen]

I've found that bedding track pads in on the street to be a waste of time if you're driving on them to get to the track. By the time I arrive, the transfer layer seems to be completely gone from the rotors.

I do something similar to what eacmen mentioned to bed my pads in on the first session of the day. I'll also lightly left foot brake through long sweeping corners to help the pads get up to temp quicker. A combination of both these things means I can usually get the pads bedded in on the first lap, but that depends on traffic of course.

Just figured I'd put this out there since there's a bedding conversation going on.

On the topic of dragging the brakes to warm them up:

Its something I do as well. But was hesitant to recommend it toa beginner as other students around him may get confused with constant brake lights.

What I will say is that if you plan to do it then practice the left foot braking on the street before doing it on track. And tell your instructor what you plan to do. It is very effective but unless its a cold track you shouldn't be having any issues getting heat into the pfc08 pads just doing laps.

[mrgizmo04]

All track pads will have at least a slight increase in friction with heat. There is sometimes a "delay" after a long straight where your brakes cool down before they get back to optimal temp range as you start applying pressure. My experience with PFC08 years ago is they basically don't need bedding, and have a very consistent feel and mu from cold. That said, PFC08 are endurance pads, some folks like super high bite on initial application, just personal preferences, these pads will not provide that. They are very easy to learn on and are great performance.

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[Estoril]

On the topic of dragging the brakes to warm them up:

Its something I do as well. But was hesitant to recommend it toa beginner as other students around him may get confused with constant brake lights.

What I will say is that if you plan to do it then practice the left foot braking on the street before doing it on track. And tell your instructor what you plan to do. It is very effective but unless its a cold track you shouldn't be having any issues getting heat into the pfc08 pads just doing laps.

I was instructing in the same run group the days the OP was on track with that experience. Shenandoah is a track that you'll bed the pads on the first lap/1.5 laps.

(To Eacmen: I know you know this)

[heinzboehmer]

On the topic of dragging the brakes to warm them up:

Its something I do as well. But was hesitant to recommend it toa beginner as other students around him may get confused with constant brake lights.

Yes that's a good point. Should have added that disclaimer to my post.

What I will say is that if you plan to do it then practice the left foot braking on the street before doing it on track. And tell your instructor what you plan to do. It is very effective but unless its a cold track you shouldn't be having any issues getting heat into the pfc08 pads just doing laps.

Totally agreed. The daily is an auto and I left foot brake on that thing practically everywhere I go. Great practice for the track

[OldRanger]

Update: my son had a couple track days with the car and didn’t complain about this aspect of braking. He and his instructor only mentioned being at the limits of the tires (4 month old PS4S with 20 HPDE sessions on them and lots of tread depth.)

My conclusion from studying the available information is that there’s probably opportunity to improve upon a setup that uses the PFC08 for both front and rear on an ABS equipped car. I’ll experiment in the real world after these pads wear out. Presuming that Performance Friction is committed to product improvements, the PFC 331/332 would incorporate another 10 years or so of R&D. I’m in on that, and plan to try those next. #madeintheusa

[mrgizmo04]

I'd assume your delay function is also compounded by stock(? not sure if I saw) calipers which deflect a lot and also your tires. Inside shoulder blocks on ps4s wear like iron and are a much harder compound than the exterior shoulder where softer rubber is for cornering grip. I assume there is some tread deflection and squirm on ps4s until they deflect enough to grip and slow you down. With a lot of tread depth and with track alignment (assuming around 2.5 degrees up front) you would struggle. I think it is time you look at tires. Ps4s fall off after about 2 laps. You keep looking for more and more aggressive pad, but I think tires are your limiting factor to an extent. Especially supportive of the theory since you are hitting ABS seems like rather frequently, and pulsating pedal is also not helping enjoying the experience and modulation.

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[OldRanger]

I'd assume your delay function is also compounded by stock(? not sure if I saw) calipers which deflect a lot and also your tires. Inside shoulder blocks on ps4s wear like iron and are a much harder compound than the exterior shoulder where softer rubber is for cornering grip. I assume there is some tread deflection and squirm on ps4s until they deflect enough to grip and slow you down. With a lot of tread depth and with track alignment (assuming around 2.5 degrees up front) you would struggle. I think it is time you look at tires. Ps4s fall off after about 2 laps. You keep looking for more and more aggressive pad, but I think tires are your limiting factor to an extent. Especially supportive of the theory since you are hitting ABS seems like rather frequently, and pulsating pedal is also not helping enjoying the experience and modulation.

Correct: stock calipers and the OEM ZCP drilled rotors. I rebuilt the seals, so I think they are working optimally and probably sufficient for low/intermediate driving pace.
Correct: front camber is -3.1, total toe is +.07

What interests me about the 331/332 pad mix (conceptually) is the rear 332 compound is actually less aggressive (lower friction) than the 08. In my mind that just seems to be a good idea, especially with ABS. Someone has real data on this. Presumably Bimmerworld and PFC, and endurance race teams.

We're having fun.

[eacmen]

I wish PFC made the 332 compound for rear BBK. I'm currently looking for a less aggressive rear pad and actually going to try using the PFC Z sport/street pad in the rear to see if ABS is happier.