help and suggestions needed. SMG issue journey

[chalaka]

took forever to start this rebuilt, but didn't end up well as expected.

background:
car drops out gear fast, after a while, pop back to the gear where it left. not holding up pressure was my guess.

so what i did:
- took out smg pump, took it apart
- fit MLR orings for 4 sensors(x 12), gear's butterfly like o-rings x 2, and 2 or so small o-rings from the package
- fit MLR refurbished accumulator
- fit MLR new motor
- fit new smg plastic feedline from reservoir to pump

after put back:
- found leak at where the reservoir line to the pump, red collar area
- too tired to take everything apart, so i fiddled it with new o-ring + ziptie it done, seems to be not leaking. however, the line didn't sit all the way in (hence i ziptie it down first)

bleeding:
- tried to bleed it with ISTA, got stuck to step 3 i guess...weird noise
- error: 57 pump on time, and P1717

it primes long to stop.

what are my options now? if i take it apart again, where should i check? sigh

i activate one of the menu under ISTA to see the accumulator pressure, it shows 0.

[eacmen]

Sometimes the reservoir to pump gets air-locked and doesnt allow hydraulic fluid into the oil pan. So you sort of need to put the reservoir pipe in and out of the pump to ensure fluid is flowing. This could cause a 0 pressure condition.

[chalaka]

Sometimes the reservoir to pump gets air-locked and doesnt allow hydraulic fluid into the oil pan. So you sort of need to put the reservoir pipe in and out of the pump to ensure fluid is flowing. This could cause a 0 pressure condition.

thank you so much for the input.

I have exchanged a lot of messages with MLR lately, They have being really helpful and responsive.

so guess in the end i need to take apart the pump and evaluate my work again.

they gave me inputs on the

- orientation of the inner pump copper plate directions (there are big and small port difference)
- i'll change out pressure sensor and temp sensor just to rule out these
- plastic cable from reservoir to the pump, i need to take it apart and fiddle with the oring and fitment in that region.
- coupler between motor and inner pump, needs to make sure they sits well, and i will need to probably add more grease there to lubricate it.

--------------------------------------------
aside from all the thinking above.

I cleared code and took it out for a quick spin
The following is my impression.

- i was able to complete full adaptation with Foxwell NT510
- errors were all erased
- car changed gears smooth and fast, compares to before, gear switched right away without double blinking/or flashing on the instrument

then after roughly 10km ish drove around, gear error pops up, code reader reads P1717 error, but car still switch gears normally..

so whatever i did, car did improves, it's just something's still "not quite right" .. damn it

so ..

[eacmen]

Did you replace the relay already?

[chalaka]

Did you replace the relay already?

for this time, not yet, still using the same relay.

really hope the relay got sticky, hence, causing the continuous ON problem.

will report back if this is indeed the cause. Thank you for the suggestion

[Irhase46m3]

thank you so much for the input.

I have exchanged a lot of messages with MLR lately, They have being really helpful and responsive.

so guess in the end i need to take apart the pump and evaluate my work again.

they gave me inputs on the

- orientation of the inner pump copper plate directions (there are big and small port difference)
- i'll change out pressure sensor and temp sensor just to rule out these
- plastic cable from reservoir to the pump, i need to take it apart and fiddle with the oring and fitment in that region.
- coupler between motor and inner pump, needs to make sure they sits well, and i will need to probably add more grease there to lubricate it.

--------------------------------------------
aside from all the thinking above.

I cleared code and took it out for a quick spin
The following is my impression.

- i was able to complete full adaptation with Foxwell NT510
- errors were all erased
- car changed gears smooth and fast, compares to before, gear switched right away without double blinking/or flashing on the instrument

then after roughly 10km ish drove around, gear error pops up, code reader reads P1717 error, but car still switch gears normally..

so whatever i did, car did improves, it's just something's still "not quite right" .. damn it

so ..

Hi There - If you did not rebuild the pump correctly, you could have damaged the internal diamond shaped oring (for the lack of a better word) - and the pump is constantly on struggling to maintain pressure. another thing to consider is the torque in nm needed when rebuilding the pump, it needs to be spot-on.


To turly troubleshoot this, you need inpa to check the live pressure value of the accumulator and the oil pump - This would help determine were the fault might be.

hope this helps.

[oceansize]

another thing to consider is the torque in nm needed when rebuilding the pump, it needs to be spot-on.

What torque do you use? When I rebuilt mine I went with 5nm. I've never seen definitive documentation on the value and so many don't seem to want to say what torque value they used.

[chalaka]

Hi There - If you did not rebuild the pump correctly, you could have damaged the internal diamond shaped oring (for the lack of a better word) - and the pump is constantly on struggling to maintain pressure. another thing to consider is the torque in nm needed when rebuilding the pump, it needs to be spot-on.


To turly troubleshoot this, you need inpa to check the live pressure value of the accumulator and the oil pump - This would help determine were the fault might be.

hope this helps.

i didn't torque them, just tighten them snugly ..

(1) what kind of value change should i examine the accumulator pressure?

like, if it builds up, then drop suddenly (or gradually even if i am not shifting)? which indicates seal leaking?
(2) am i able to examine the change without start the engine?

appreciate your input to help troubleshoot..

i still haven't swap the relay or take another look yet, car's being park again ..

================================================== ===============
found this torque info from MLR page:

https://mlreng.com/blogs/news/e46-m3-smg-pump-torque-spec

but didn't see the spec for the inner pump though.

[Irhase46m3]

What torque do you use? When I rebuilt mine I went with 5nm. I've never seen definitive documentation on the value and so many don't seem to want to say what torque value they used.

I used 7nm, it is listed on the MLR website, its called gear pump, which spins the gears to generate pressure. Here is the info from MLR, first NM then in-lb:

16

Gear pump bolt

6-7

-

55-65

i didn't torque them, just tighten them snugly ..

(1) what kind of value change should i examine the accumulator pressure?

like, if it builds up, then drop suddenly (or gradually even if i am not shifting)? which indicates seal leaking?
(2) am i able to examine the change without start the engine?

appreciate your input to help troubleshoot..

i still haven't swap the relay or take another look yet, car's being park again ..

================================================== ===============
found this torque info from MLR page:

https://mlreng.com/blogs/news/e46-m3-smg-pump-torque-spec

but didn't see the spec for the inner pump though.

The pump should take a few seconds to pressure fully at about 75 bar, after that it should hold pressure for a few minutes until it slowly reaches 50bar then turns on again to reach 75bar. - A few things that are important about this statement is the amount of seconds it takes to pressurize, if you are leaking pressure it is quite obvious - Since its leaking pressure, the pump will continually run trying to maintain pressure until it overheats triggering the COG - Also, your relay will run hot (40amp relay) which will cause it to fail (become sticky) - Additionally, perform your tests in cold and hot weather, monitor pressure on both spectrums. It is imperative to run these tests with INPA and get the live data feed.

Hope this info helps.

[chalaka]

I used 7nm, it is listed on the MLR website, its called gear pump, which spins the gears to generate pressure. Here is the info from MLR, first NM then in-lb:

16

Gear pump bolt

6-7

-

55-65

The pump should take a few seconds to pressure fully at about 75 bar, after that it should hold pressure for a few minutes until it slowly reaches 50bar then turns on again to reach 75bar. - A few things that are important about this statement is the amount of seconds it takes to pressurize, if you are leaking pressure it is quite obvious - Since its leaking pressure, the pump will continually run trying to maintain pressure until it overheats triggering the COG - Also, your relay will run hot (40amp relay) which will cause it to fail (become sticky) - Additionally, perform your tests in cold and hot weather, monitor pressure on both spectrums. It is imperative to run these tests with INPA and get the live data feed.

Hope this info helps.

thank you very much! very informative.

I will try to replace the relay again to see if it makes difference.

Because during my install, one incident was, got the wrong relay, SMG3 (gray one) in, so pump did not prime, then i reused the old one to troubleshoot, and it runs.

and the priming was long, super long, so probably leak somewhere? or, it was due to bad hot relay (over heated 40A fuse?) ?

do you know if SMG3 butterfly o-ring has the same(or similar size) as SMG2's? based from MLR's reply, the person handled shipment made lots of errors before..
(hence wrong relay, and possibly wrong oring?) (still fighting mentally, and hope i don't have to take apart the pump to evaluate)

car's back on lift last night, will try out INPA pressure test these days.

Appreciate much for your insights!

[chalaka]

another good article in regards to P1717 i came across. For everyone's reference.

https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/2003-bmw-m3-electrohydraulic-gearbox-p1717

so, P1717 is Pump on time for too long,
possible causes:
- sticky faulty relay , electrical related issue causing pump to be ON for too long
- leak somewhere, causing the pump to be ON to make up to the dropping of pressure.

couple things to watch out:
- how long pump primes
- how long pump drops out of pressure
--> using INPA to monitor such change

for my symptom, i noticed when car's cold, issue seems to be less, GEAR yellow error on when car's being driven for a while ..so, maybe this
tells that i do have internal leak somewhere (like member's suggestion, damaged inner pump oring):

hence, when viscosity of the oil changed, causing faster drop of pressure, so pump is ON.

but this is also weird that, sometimes PUMP primes fast, sometimes slow .. so, relay or fuse issue, maybe ..
will see how it goes this weekend ..

(sorry for such talking to myself type of sharing xd, just tired of dealing with SMG issue, yet, just feel so close to get it fixed )

[Irhase46m3]

thank you very much! very informative.

I will try to replace the relay again to see if it makes difference.

Because during my install, one incident was, got the wrong relay, SMG3 (gray one) in, so pump did not prime, then i reused the old one to troubleshoot, and it runs.

and the priming was long, super long, so probably leak somewhere? or, it was due to bad hot relay (over heated 40A fuse?) ?

do you know if SMG3 butterfly o-ring has the same(or similar size) as SMG2's? based from MLR's reply, the person handled shipment made lots of errors before..
(hence wrong relay, and possibly wrong oring?) (still fighting mentally, and hope i don't have to take apart the pump to evaluate)

car's back on lift last night, will try out INPA pressure test these days.

Appreciate much for your insights!

As far as i know the SMG3 uses the same oil gear pump as the SMG2 however everything else is different - So theoretically that diamond/butterfly o-ring should be the same. If the actual oil gear pump is the one leaking pressure it could be because it was not reassembled in the correct order, the clearances on the gear pump are super tight, you essentially need to put everything on one side and keep stacking it until its assembled, do not assemble it as two equal parts sticking it together. (hopefully this makes sense) - Make sure its torqued to 7nm, both bolts the one that holds the gear pump to the block and the two that put together the pump.

I would definitely question that SMG3 relay, also its important to understand that the sticky relay doesnt happen from one use of overheating.

Hope this helps..

[Irhase46m3]

another good article in regards to P1717 i came across. For everyone's reference.

https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/2003-bmw-m3-electrohydraulic-gearbox-p1717

so, P1717 is Pump on time for too long,
possible causes:
- sticky faulty relay , electrical related issue causing pump to be ON for too long
- leak somewhere, causing the pump to be ON to make up to the dropping of pressure.

couple things to watch out:
- how long pump primes
- how long pump drops out of pressure
--> using INPA to monitor such change

for my symptom, i noticed when car's cold, issue seems to be less, GEAR yellow arrow on when car's being driven for a while ..so, maybe this
tells that i do have internal leak somewhere (like member's suggestion, damaged inner pump oring):

hence, when viscosity of the oil changed, causing faster drop of pressure, so pump is ON.

but this is also weird that, sometimes PUMP primes fast, sometimes slow .. so, relay or fuse issue, maybe ..
will see how it goes this weekend ..

(sorry for such talking to myself type of sharing xd, just tired of dealing with SMG issue, yet, just feel so close to get it fixed )

Yes, you are getting the picture, it is a very simple system once you understand it. High oil temp will change the viscosity which translates to pump priming more often.

[chalaka]

Yes, you are getting the picture, it is a very simple system once you understand it. High oil temp will change the viscosity which translates to pump priming more often.

thank you so much!

at least i am feeling more confident in the sense of understanding the whole picture of how this system is like..

so it's definitely fixable without purchasing a new or refurbished pump from one of the vendors XD (fingers crossed)

and you are spot on the assemble process of the inner pump!!
i jointed them from 2 equal pieces together! and the torque thing may be an issue as well, i tried to tight them by feel, maybe what i felt is tight isn't tight enough ~
those copper plates, and inlet, outlet holes could be confusing as well..

From MLR's help, the following oil path was the result of recommendation they emphasized.
Hope this can help someone's future work.
I think i got mine right, but, i am starting to 2nd guess my work now due to the P1717 error still.



p.s
do you re-oil those inner pump/gears when you reassemble them back? since it's to tight in fitting, ..

[Irhase46m3]

thank you so much!

at least i am feeling more confident in the sense of understanding the whole picture of how this system is like..

so it's definitely fixable without purchasing a new or refurbished pump from one of the vendors XD (fingers crossed)

and you are spot on the assemble process of the inner pump!!
i jointed them from 2 equal pieces together! and the torque thing may be an issue as well, i tried to tight them by feel, maybe what i felt is tight isn't tight enough ~
those copper plates, and inlet, outlet holes could be confusing as well..

From MLR's help, the following oil path was the result of recommendation they emphasized.
Hope this can help someone's future work.
I think i got mine right, but, i am starting to 2nd guess my work now due to the P1717 error still.



p.s
do you re-oil those inner pump/gears when you reassemble them back? since it's to tight in fitting, ..

It is definitely fixable. I do not re-oil, the pump, i try to keep it as dry as possible when assembling, once assembled and secure to pump body, before putting back the tiny filter, i drop some chf11s into the tiny hole, then rotate the pump manually from the shaft on where the electric motor the goes, this would give it some fluid so its not dry.

hope this helps..