Old M3 or old 911??

[yhp2009]

Many, MANY (most) cars suck to work on compared to the e46 M3. Air cooled 911s are not among them-- they're so simple that lack of access doesn't really matter that much.

Sorry to go off topic, but most cars are front engine and can be worked on standing up. That alone is a huge advantage imo... as opposed to having to get the car on a lift even for the most minor fix. There are entire threads here just talking about how to get cars on lifts safely and expediently. To me, not having to worry about that portion every single time is a load off my shoulder worth considering
But then again if you really love the 911, it quickly becomes just a small inconvenience

[Hammerfang]

997.2 or 987.2 and call it a day if the budget allows for it. Both drive better then the e46 m3 and only marginally less useful as a DD, otherwise a better car (assuming you have the budget) in basically every way.

i was super close to buying a former EAG m3 last year but couldn’t pull the trigger after having spent some seat time in my dad’s 997.2. Reality set in with the budget (997.2 is too expensive), but the 997.2 and 987.2 are fantastic driving experiences if you have the budget and are willing to give up the rear seats.

not trying to hate on the m3, just offering a different perspective then what you’ll likely hear on this forum.

[R1pilot]

I think just comparing 964s to 993s on its own is worth it as they are very different cars. Starting with the much improved suspension of the 993.

A 993 Turbo has quite a few more horsepower than any e46 M3 ever had from the factory.

964 and 993 prices are on different levels as well as it depends which variant of each.

I’d say first figure out which 911 you want and then compare it to your e46.

[Flat-Six]

My personal experiences, and ownership is with 66-87 911's, with I'm guessing over 500K miles of driving experience in them, so the below is related to the 66-87 cars.

Currently own a 86 930 and a 03 M3. I've owned and worked on air-cooled 911's as a hobby (and at a shop while in college) since the late 70's. Both have their advantages, and both are great cars, but totally different. The M3 is a very easy car to drive fast, quiet, not a lot of engine music in comparison, and just more refined, where as the 911 is noisy, raw, and makes you think when driving fast, but offers a greater reward when you get it right. When driving the M3 I feel like I an do anything, not so with the 911, it demands respect,(and, the 930 is a completely different animal, I have to be aware of what I am doing, and pay attention to everything when going on boost, as it breaks the rear wheels loose in 1st and 2nd) For me, there is no comparison between the driving experience, the 911 is just so much more exciting, much more feel, and very rewarding to drive. I never ever listen to music in a 911, as you have that wonderful air-cooled flat-six behind you to listen to, and if you are lucky enough to get a 69-73 with carbs, that is just incredible music. When driving, you feel so much more of the road, and an extension of the car. Just the other night my wife and I were out for a dinner drive in the M3, and she was commenting how she felt like she was sitting on top of the M3, but when in the 930, she felt like she was part of the car. The seating position is much better as are the seats if you get sport seats. It's a true, 100% analog car. The M3 is just dull in comparison for lack of a better word when it comes to driving feel, but it's still a great car in it's on. I've put over 100K miles on my 930, and probably easily have over 500K miles in other air cooled 911's that I've owned, as I drive them, and I've tracked them. I like the uniqueness of the 911. If my wife and I take a trip, and it's just the two if us, then we take the 930. If we go out to dinner, or a movie, or a quick drive downtown, we take the M3. They have been by far the most reliable cars that I've owned.

I daily'd 911's for over 30 years.

This is a M3 forum, and I am not putting down the M3 at all, as it's a great car, and I love driving and tracking mine, the (69-87) 911 is just completely different (IMO) than the M3. I am just offering my personal feelings and experiences of years of working on them, ownership, and driving.

If you have specific questions, feel free to PM me.

If I could only have one my first choice would be a 78-87 930, 2nd: 69-73 911, and 3rd would be 83-86 911, as I personally don't like the G50 cars.

[yhp2009]

My personal experiences, and ownership is with 66-87 911's, with I'm guessing over 500K miles of driving experience in them, so the below is related to the 66-87 cars.

Currently own a 86 930 and a 03 M3. I've owned and worked on air-cooled 911's as a hobby (and at a shop while in college) since the late 70's. Both have their advantages, and both are great cars, but totally different. The M3 is a very easy car to drive fast, quiet, not a lot of engine music in comparison, and just more refined, where as the 911 is noisy, raw, and makes you think when driving fast, but offers a greater reward when you get it right. When driving the M3 I feel like I an do anything, not so with the 911, it demands respect,(and, the 930 is a completely different animal, I have to be aware of what I am doing, and pay attention to everything when going on boost, as it breaks the rear wheels loose in 1st and 2nd) For me, there is no comparison between the driving experience, the 911 is just so much more exciting, much more feel, and very rewarding to drive. I never ever listen to music in a 911, as you have that wonderful air-cooled flat-six behind you to listen to, and if you are lucky enough to get a 69-73 with carbs, that is just incredible music. When driving, you feel so much more of the road, and an extension of the car. Just the other night my wife and I were out for a dinner drive in the M3, and she was commenting how she felt like she was sitting on top of the M3, but when in the 930, she felt like she was part of the car. The seating position is much better as are the seats if you get sport seats. It's a true, 100% analog car. The M3 is just dull in comparison for lack of a better word when it comes to driving feel, but it's still a great car in it's on. I've put over 100K miles on my 930, and probably easily have over 500K miles in other air cooled 911's that I've owned, as I drive them, and I've tracked them. I like the uniqueness of the 911. If my wife and I take a trip, and it's just the two if us, then we take the 930. If we go out to dinner, or a movie, or a quick drive downtown, we take the M3. They have been by far the most reliable cars that I've owned.

I daily'd 911's for over 30 years.

This is a M3 forum, and I am not putting down the M3 at all, as it's a great car, and I love driving and tracking mine, the (69-87) 911 is just completely different (IMO) than the M3. I am just offering my personal feelings and experiences of years of working on them, ownership, and driving.

If you have specific questions, feel free to PM me.

If I could only have one my first choice would be a 78-87 930, 2nd: 69-73 911, and 3rd would be 83-86 911, as I personally don't like the G50 cars.

Intrigued to say the least. Thanks for your perspective

[Cbouts]

My personal experiences, and ownership is with 66-87 911's, with I'm guessing over 500K miles of driving experience in them, so the below is related to the 66-87 cars.

Currently own a 86 930 and a 03 M3. I've owned and worked on air-cooled 911's as a hobby (and at a shop while in college) since the late 70's. Both have their advantages, and both are great cars, but totally different. The M3 is a very easy car to drive fast, quiet, not a lot of engine music in comparison, and just more refined, where as the 911 is noisy, raw, and makes you think when driving fast, but offers a greater reward when you get it right. When driving the M3 I feel like I an do anything, not so with the 911, it demands respect,(and, the 930 is a completely different animal, I have to be aware of what I am doing, and pay attention to everything when going on boost, as it breaks the rear wheels loose in 1st and 2nd) For me, there is no comparison between the driving experience, the 911 is just so much more exciting, much more feel, and very rewarding to drive. I never ever listen to music in a 911, as you have that wonderful air-cooled flat-six behind you to listen to, and if you are lucky enough to get a 69-73 with carbs, that is just incredible music. When driving, you feel so much more of the road, and an extension of the car. Just the other night my wife and I were out for a dinner drive in the M3, and she was commenting how she felt like she was sitting on top of the M3, but when in the 930, she felt like she was part of the car. The seating position is much better as are the seats if you get sport seats. It's a true, 100% analog car. The M3 is just dull in comparison for lack of a better word when it comes to driving feel, but it's still a great car in it's on. I've put over 100K miles on my 930, and probably easily have over 500K miles in other air cooled 911's that I've owned, as I drive them, and I've tracked them. I like the uniqueness of the 911. If my wife and I take a trip, and it's just the two if us, then we take the 930. If we go out to dinner, or a movie, or a quick drive downtown, we take the M3. They have been by far the most reliable cars that I've owned.

I daily'd 911's for over 30 years.

This is a M3 forum, and I am not putting down the M3 at all, as it's a great car, and I love driving and tracking mine, the (69-87) 911 is just completely different (IMO) than the M3. I am just offering my personal feelings and experiences of years of working on them, ownership, and driving.

If you have specific questions, feel free to PM me.

If I could only have one my first choice would be a 78-87 930, 2nd: 69-73 911, and 3rd would be 83-86 911, as I personally don't like the G50 cars.

awesome review! REALLY appreciate the time to share your thoughts. As mentioned, i love my M but there has always been that thought in the back of my head about an old 911. My neighbor has a Guards Red 993 and there is just something about it that always caught my eye.

Thanks again for the help. i will have to keep looking and reviewing to figure out what i want to do.

[Flat-Six]

The one thing ive always disliked about 911s is the engine bay. Just so small and inaccessible compared to the glorious S54.

66-87 cars: It's not as bad as it looks. They are actually very easy to work on. You can actually do a complete top-end with engine still in the car, had a friend that did that in his driveway due to no garage. For most other maint (plugs/valve adj etc) if AC is on the car just pull the compressor off the mount, lay some towels on the fender and lay it on the towels, pretty common practice. Then you have full access. But unless you are modding, the engines are just so bullet-proof you rarely have to do anything other than normal maint. I've never had to split a block on cars that I owned due to a problem, it was usually while I was upgrading Pistons/Cylinders to a larger size, and I just wanted to freshen up the engine, because I can. I have just under 150K on the 930, and engine's never been apart, bought it with 31K on it.

[Flat-Six]

awesome review! REALLY appreciate the time to share your thoughts. As mentioned, i love my M but there has always been that thought in the back of my head about an old 911. My neighbor has a Guards Red 993 and there is just something about it that always caught my eye.

Thanks again for the help. i will have to keep looking and reviewing to figure out what i want to do.

Please feel free to PM or email anytime if you have questions. I'll prob be letting the M3 go once I get the 930 the way I want it, and pick up a 84-86 Targa for a daily.

[lcrain]

They are quite different cars so I would highly recommend you drive a handful of different aircooled 911s to really get a feel for whether you like them. Not everybody does like them. I have always been a fan of the air cooled cars. Lots of experience with both my dads '86 targa and my brothers 993 c2. Those two aircooled 911s are quite different as well. My dads '86 targa is stock and just a great cruiser. The glass wrap around rear window and removable roof panel are very unique and I just love the look. My brothers 993 on the other hand is setup for track days while still livable on the street. RS inspired interior, sparco seats, roll bar, bilstein pss10, LSD, RS cams, cat deletes, fiberglass ducktail, fd golden rod shifter setup. It is pretty fast and a hoot to drive at the track or spirited street driving. Keeps up with a setup m3 on tighter tracks, not so much on cota or somewhere with longer straights.

As many have pointed out, the e46 m3 is a better car in many objective, measurable ways. It's also more practical, depending on your lifestyle that may not matter. The M3 will be easier and cheaper to work on. I think an e46 m3 is a great combination of practicality, usable performance with amazing balance and a really impressive engine. It is a compelling buy to me at <$30k. There are no aircooled 911s are that are a compelling buy in the same price range. So cost of entry is noticeably higher. So you really have to enjoy the subjective differences that the aircooled 911 offer. They are built very solidly and everything you touch, from the door handles to the shifter just have a good feel to them. The induction noise is really special right behind your head. As Flat-Six pointed out, they are hard to drive fast just given the different dynamics of the rear engine. But they reward you if you get it right.

A decent 993 c2 with a manual is probably a minimum of $45k. If you are ok with a c4 or a tiptronic, which I would not even consider either personally, then you can probably find one for less. A nice SC can be had for $35-40k. 3.2 targas can be had for close to $40k or so. 964s are really hard to justify in my opinion unless you really just love the look, have to have it and plan to hold onto it for a while. Really, really hard to find a 964 c2 with a manual and no massive stories for less than $55k. If you do it will have lots of miles and probably a little rough around the edges. Value proposition is just not there for me and I really love the look of the 964.

[T.J.]

Just kidding... a least no one has said p-car in this thread. Stupidest car slang abbreviation in my opinion.

[Arith2]

A 987 would destroy an E46 M3 on a track stock for stock. A 997 is faster straight line but doesn't hold corners quite as well as a 987. Both are fairly easy to perform basic maintenance on. A 993 is super easy to work on but when you change the oil, you may end up wearing it... Ask me how I know. 993's will either be super expensive or require alot of work because of age. If there's any more advanced maintenance, dropping the engine is different. I'm about to drop an engine in a 987 and so far, there is ALOT less to remove than pulling an S54. The issue is removing it out the bottom without the $3000 table and a lift. A Porsche will probably end up being more reliable but that's just my opinion. There's the whole IMS bearing issue but that can be solved for around $800. That whole shaft is a stupid design. Aftermarket for a Porsche will be about 50%-100% more for modding if you go that route.

[Obioban]

A 987 would destroy an E46 M3 on a track stock for stock.

This doesn't seem to be the case, on average. Most e46 M3s I see on track are faster than most 987s I see on track. It might be the owner demographics, but it is what it is.

[lcrain]

A 987 would destroy an E46 M3 on a track stock for stock.

This is not my experience. Stock for stock, probably very close with a slight edge to the M3. 987s are really great, very balanced fun cars but they are not that obscenely fast.

[Arith2]

This doesn't seem to be the case, on average. Most e46 M3s I see on track are faster than most 987s I see on track. It might be the owner demographics, but it is what it is.

My dad's stock 2006 Cayman S is faster around corners than my M3. I took the whole driver variance out and just drove them both myself. It can definitely handle more G's but there's not the same type of community around 987's. To most of them it's just a fun car that they pay someone else to take care of. The aftermarket around Porsches is also secretive which is annoying.

[Obioban]

My dad's stock 2006 Cayman S is faster around corners than my M3. I took the whole driver variance out and just drove them both myself. It can definitely handle more G's but there's not the same type of community around 987's. To most of them it's just a fun car that they pay someone else to take care of. The aftermarket around Porsches is also secretive which is annoying.

Cornering G’s is overwhelmingly a function of tires.

e.g. Jason Cammisa just took his golf from .82G to 1.07G just with a tire swap.

... what tires are on your M3?