Old M3 or old 911??

[Flat-Six]

The M3 has a better engine,

Based on personal experience, I've never had to split a Mezger case due to a failure, only once and that was on a Mag case that I was hot-rodding into a 2.7RS conversion I was doing 30 years ago. I'm just south of 150K on the 930, and will be doing the heads next year, and possibly Pistons and Cylinders jus to freshen up for track use, and I'll split the case as I want to use matched GT3 mains. Just a personal choice. The bottom ends on those (stock) engines just don't typically have issues under 250-300K. The 930 motors are a bit different due people running higher boost and exceeding the capability of the CIS to manage proper AFR's. You keep a 930 engine stock, let it cool down properly before shutting it down, it's bottom end will last as well, but the top end will wear more than a NA 911.

I would a agree the S54 is a better engine than the 986/7 996/7 Water cooled engines, based on reading and talking to friends with shops, as I've never personally worked on one, and don't plan on it.

[Arith2]

Cornering G’s is overwhelmingly a function of tires.

e.g. Jason Cammisa just took his golf from .82G to 1.07G just with a tire swap.

... what tires are on your M3?

He had about 5 year old sport cups at the time, and I had very new Continental Pro Contact Sports. Tires are the number one factor in handling and the difference when he got PS4's was night and day. I think the performance was in my favor tire wise, but body roll, weight balance, and center of gravity all played a roll in how it performed. The stability control is also helpful in the 987 rather than extremely invasive.

If your talking Mezger, I'd disagree. If your referring to the Water-cooled of the 986/6 996/7 I'd totally agree, what a $hit engine.

I agree. The S54 is a great engine. My dad had a M97 engine rebuilt by Jake Raby and it lasted 40k with a recall needing to be performed on the pistons 10k into it. LN Engineering were the ones to do the recall. We are dropping the engine for a knock. All bearings have been replaced supposedly and the IMS bearing solution was performed. The engine has 135k miles on it. Im really not a fan of this engine or either of those unhelpful organizations.

I'm down for any info you guys can give me on an M97 if you have TSBs or PDFs sitting around just so I don't miss something.

[Brandon]

The M3 has a better engine, accelerates faster, turns faster, stops faster, has more front seat space, has a far more functional back seats, has a larger trunk, has significantly cheaper parts, is significantly safer, has better headlights, and is more comfortable/tech filled. I don't really care about tech, but basic things like bluetooth and automatic climate control (not to mention AC that actually works) just make a car easier to live with.

The air cooleds are easier to work on and a more involving driving experience. Steering feel, in particular, is better. They are also just smaller and lighter cars, and smaller/lighter always drives better, regardless of how much speed results from it.

If you're using it as a car (transport) and/or have kids and/or track it, I'd say the M3 is the better choice. If you're using it for weekends and/or cars and coffee and/or car shows and/or quick back road driving, the 911 is probably the better choice.

Great points here....


If you like to drive and you like analog, a well set up 964 is fantastic. I had a 991.1 GT3 and preferred driving both the 964 and 997 versus the 991.

[Flat-Six]

I'm down for any info you guys can give me on an M97 if you have TSBs or PDFs sitting around just so I don't miss something.

I'd go over to Pelican and ask that in the proper forum. There are plenty of guys, and shop owners that can assist. From what I hear, it's not a bad engine after all the (aftermarket) updates are performed. A good friend of mine (ex 962 Brun/Kalagian Tech) just would not touch that engine. Pretty much cost him his shop later on.

[Flat-Six]

Great points here....


If you like to drive and you like analog, a well set up 964 is fantastic. I had a 991.1 GT3 and preferred driving both the 964 and 997 versus the 991.

Nice looking car, never had the opportunity to own one.

[oceansize]

Great points here....


If you like to drive and you like analog, a well set up 964 is fantastic. I had a 991.1 GT3 and preferred driving both the 964 and 997 versus the 991.

When I hear Porsche this is the model that springs to mind due to my age. I wish they hadn't sky rocketed in price.

[Arith2]

I'd go over to Pelican and ask that in the proper forum. There are plenty of guys, and shop owners that can assist. From what I hear, it's not a bad engine after all the (aftermarket) updates are performed. A good friend of mine (ex 962 Brun/Kalagian Tech) just would not touch that engine. Pretty much cost him his shop later on.

It's not so bad I wouldn't touch it. There are alot of worse engine out there. For Porsche, it's subpar but sure isn't a Maserati. That's a car I wouldn't waste my time with unless the customer expected to pay Ferrari prices. I did end up finding a 6000 page manual so that's somewhere to start.

[Ob917]

Air cooled and carbed 911, that's my dream car. On day I'll have one.

[Flat-Six]

It's not so bad I wouldn't touch it. There are alot of worse engine out there. For Porsche, it's subpar but sure isn't a Maserati. That's a car I wouldn't waste my time with unless the customer expected to pay Ferrari prices. I did end up finding a 6000 page manual so that's somewhere to start.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that it was not worth it, at all, just that some (including me) did not adapt to the newer stuff. It's not a bad engine by itself, but was not up to Porsche standards, but I totally understand why they went to a more production based engine.

There's a lot of aftermarket talent that went into further development that I would lean on, as you did with LN Eng. Pelican is a good place to start, a lot of "Obioban's" over there for the water-cooled stuff, and I mean that in a positive way. You can really make that into a pretty good engine from what I read over there. I just prefer the Mezger and the old 356 stuff. I'm old.

[Obioban]

Pelican really is an awesome community. My brother did an air cooled engine building class organized by one of the members, where in person they all took one apart together and rebuilt it.

... hopefully is survives the ECS takeover.

[Obioban]

He had about 5 year old sport cups at the time, and I had very new Continental Pro Contact Sports. Tires are the number one factor in handling and the difference when he got PS4's was night and day. I think the performance was in my favor tire wise, but body roll, weight balance, and center of gravity all played a roll in how it performed.

I'd put money on the cups being significantly gripper than the Contis. I miss the cup 1s-- probably my favorite time I've driven on. Cup 2s were a huge let down.
... whereas Contis are pretty meh.

Body roll (which is not a negative, contrary to popular belief), weight balance, COG, etc, all play a roll in handling for sure. But in terms of actual cornering G, which is what I was responding to, tires are 90%+ of what matters.

Really, though, just go to a track event-- the 987s just aren't that fast. I almost entirely do PCA track events. It could be the group that owns them, but I don't see any reason that ownership pool would be that different than 981s (considerably faster).

[r4dr]

987s are the modern Porsche Miata experience.

[Flat-Six]

Pelican really is an awesome community. My brother did an air cooled engine building class organized by one of the members, where in person they all took one apart together and rebuilt it.

... hopefully is survives the ECS takeover.

Bruce Anderson used to have those types of classes, and wrote several books that are really excellent. There is some really excellent talent over there. My younger brother is in the process of putting his 930 case back together this week.

[r4dr]

If I could only have one my first choice would be a 78-87 930, 2nd: 69-73 911, and 3rd would be 83-86 911, as I personally don't like the G50 cars.

I'm curious about this – not because I think you're wrong, but because I hear a lot of people talking the G50 cars up over the 915 cars. What's your reasoning behind this? Let me live my aircooled dreams through you

[Flat-Six]

I'm down for any info you guys can give me on an M97 if you have TSBs or PDFs sitting around just so I don't miss something.

Arith, I was thinking about you at lunch, I'd call/email:


1) Henry Schmit at SuperTec
2) John Walker John Walkers Workshop
3) Chris Carrol TurboKraft

I've talked with all the guys off and on over the years, they are all very nice and have a wealth of knowledge, and could definitely help to guide you in the right direction. Henry just did my bothers 930 Heads/Case/Crank and matched a set of GTn bearings for him. I'll be sending him mine as well for the same.

All three have their own way of doing things, and they all use different combinations of sealant, so you'll have to decide which way you want to go after talking with them.

If you ever decide to play with Turbocharging, I'd go to Charlie at Evergreen (He's in Fl), just an amazing guy and he'll talk your ears off. I just purchased a new K27-7200, Then he replaced the turbine wheels with lighter units, then spec'd and balanced the unit. I just need the time in life to install.